October 7, 2014, - 5:57 pm

DUMB: Michigan Man Prosecuted for Hugging Customers (But It IS Inappropriate)

By Debbie Schlussel

I don’t like when people I barely know try to hug me instead of a handshake. It violates my space and it’s creepy to me, but I know that most of them mean no harm. I certainly wouldn’t file a police report over it. But that’s what happened to Fred Civis. And I feel for the guy. He’s a cashier at a grocery store who has worked there for 39 years. Or was. He was fired AND charged with assault and battery for hugging a customer.

fredcivis

I agree with the choice to fire him, although I feel for anyone who loses his/her job, especially a cashier for 39 years who is age 57 and is faced with a tough situation economically. But he was warned several times by the employer not to hug customers, and he persisted. This is bad for business. On the other hand, it is a small town area where everyone knows everyone, so perhaps he felt too comfortably familiar with customers. Still, the man should not be prosecuted for assault and battery. Really? From a hug?

In August, supermarket clerk Fred Civis was arrested and fired from his job of 39 years after a customer he hugged reported him to the store and police. Many in town have rallied behind the popular cashier, launching a boycott that has slowed business at Plumb’s Valu-Rite Foods. . . .







Civis, 57, charged with assault and battery, is scheduled to appear in District Court in Muskegon on Oct. 15. The misdemeanor is punishable by up to a $500 fine and 90 days in jail. He declined comment, but his wife said he did nothing wrong. “This is a terrible accusation,” Marsha Civis wrote in a Facebook message directed toward the complainant. “I hope you will grow up and just love people.”

Plumb’s said the problem went beyond a simple hug. Civis had been warned several times about touching customers in ways they found too personal, said Jim Nader, Plumb’s president and chief executive. During a warning last year, Civis was told another incident could lead to his firing, Nader said. “We don’t terminate someone for giving unwanted hugs,” he said. “He just couldn’t follow the policy.”

Everyone in the community of 2,700 seems to know Civis. He was 18 when he began working at Plumb’s, which was the only grocery in town until 2010. At 6-foot-3 and 300 pounds, he is a bear of a man. Whether the bear is a teddy or grizzly depends on one’s vantage point. Some customers sought him as a cashier, even if his line was longer than others. Others avoided him, including a few who stopped shopping at the store.

Civis has an effusive personality that can come across a little strong, said friends. He greets people with a booming voice and sometimes stutters and pauses awkwardly as he searches for something funny to say. “He’s a little different,” said Lorna Cavanaugh, 68, who has known Civis his whole life. “But there’s not a malicious bone in his body.” If Civis didn’t know a female customer, he might suggest or ask if she needed a hug, said friends. If he knew the woman, he might embrace her unbidden. Supporters described the hug as Civis reaching around the woman’s shoulders as they stood side by side. But other customers said the embraces turned more invasive in the past few years.

You need to read the rest of the article, but it reflects how things can go badly out of control in our society. Some say that Civis’ “hugs” turned into more and that he did “feel up” customers. Others disagree. But his accusers are referring to him as a “sex assailant.” I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. But he could have been charged with criminal sexual conduct. He should be happy he was not.

When I read this story, it reminded me of an experience I had as a young kid. I was in a school carpool, and one of the fathers who drove the carpool creeped me out and really annoyed me. He was totally inappropriate and didn’t get the hint, including my several express statements that he should stop this. Every time this guy drove carpool, he would insist that I and my sisters and at least one female friend in the carpool give him a kiss on the cheek. I was disgusted and NEVER did it. I always jumped out of the car and ran like hell, maneuvering away from this creep. I complained about it, but everyone said this guy was harmless and laughed about it, thinking it was funny. Not in my mind then, and not now.

If we were in carpool today, the guy who drove carpool would probably be prosecuted for and convicted of at least 4th degree criminal sexual conduct if I, my sisters, or any of the other girls in the vehicle complained about his “kisses” to authorities, and school officials would have been bound to report it to police. Still, I would never do that or press charges against the guy, as I don’t think it reaches the point that this guy should be labeled as a sex offender or criminal for the rest of his life, and I feel the same thing about this guy, Civis. The behavior is downright creepy and totally inappropriate. But not anything that should ruin a person’s life forever. Reporting a hugger to police is ridiculous. Pressing criminal charges against him is even more so. What–there aren’t other crimes going on in Muskegon County, Michigan? Trust me, there are.

The father who drove our carpool never tried to do anything else, but I didn’t care as he clearly crossed boundaries and knew his actions were unwanted by us young girls. I knew, even though I was very young at the time, that this was completely wrong. And it made me extremely uncomfortable and dreading carpool whenever this jerk was the driver. The man is still alive today and I don’t want to embarrass him or his family, so I am leaving out names. Was he a pedophile? I don’t think so. But his behavior came pretty close to crossing that line. And I would be horrified if I had a daughter and the guy tried to do that to her.

Like I said, I think the hugging guy is the same as the kissing bandit carpool guy. Neither should be charged with a crime. But they shouldn’t be driving carpool or manning cash registers at a grocery store. They don’t understand obvious boundaries even after being told to stop.

Still, I do feel it’s a tragedy for this man more so than the women who complained against him. They “suffered” for like two seconds when he hugged them. And anyone who is mentally wounded for the rest of her life by a two second hug has something wrong with her. In contrast, I doubt Civis will be able to find another job at age 57, since all he’s ever done is be a cashier since age 18, and it’s in a small-town area. Also, it seems like he is a little slow or maybe has something a little wrong with him mentally or he would have stopped when asked by his employer. He may be mildly autistic or have Asperger’s Syndrome.

So what do you think of the hugger? Should he be prosecuted? Again, I don’t think so. There are real crimes to prosecute. This isn’t one of them. It’s not like he “felt up” or molested customers, even if his unwanted hugs might constituted literal molesting to some extent. I don’t like touchy-feely people. But I think that’s all there is here.

Do you disagree?

I think I have the solution to this whole problem. Fred Civis should say he converted to Islam, and therefore, all hugs and touching, whether or not beyond the bounds of appropriateness, will be allowed in the name of tolerance for those who “believe differently than we do” and that excessively uttered slogan: “Don’t judge!”




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45 Responses

you called it right. it is creepy.

funny how much of the elite and hollywood are presently promoting pedophlia. like the gay scene that they support. for young people today I think it is a lot more dangerous then 20 or 30 years ago. there is a strong effort to normalize this behaviour.

General P. Malaise on October 7, 2014 at 6:18 pm

I don’t think its appropriate to casually hug and kiss people you don’t know.

That’s ok when greeting family and close friends.

There are boundaries after all and people’s personal space should be respected.

We’re talking about social touching and social kissing, not impermissible sexual contact. I used to hug and kiss my father and now I miss it very much.

Fred Civis may have crossed a line but I don’t believe it was assault and battery. It was poor manners for which he should have been reprimanded.

He’s not in the same class as a rapist and murderer and putting him in jail serves no one well. That’s my take on it.

NormanF on October 7, 2014 at 6:20 pm

    I don’t even like handshakes. Germs.
    I would prefer a slight bow or a namaste type sign.

    lexi on October 8, 2014 at 12:57 pm

He should have controlled himself, and his termination was probably appropriate. I am not big on criminalizing all off putting behavior. If this man was groping people, that would be a different matter.

Worry on October 7, 2014 at 6:21 pm

Termination, yes.

Criminalizing overly affectionate behavior seems excessive to me.

NormanF on October 7, 2014 at 6:26 pm

It depends on the person, wouldn’t get in flap about it. Says more about the litigious nature of the US than anything else.

japple on October 7, 2014 at 6:29 pm

No, I do not believe that he should face criminal charges for hugging somebody. I do not think that wasting the judge’s time, or the attorney fees for this should even be a second thought. Nor do I think he should convert to Islam, or claim ageism, or some other sorry-ass crutch that seems to be endemic in our pathetic society these days. What’s next: Stop looking in my general direction!?

nadie on October 7, 2014 at 6:30 pm

Another comment lost to some void in space, or whatever. Again, no, I don’t believe that he should have a criminal record for a hug. If somebody wants to stick to the letter of the law, they had better start building lots of prison encampments and mind their P’s and Q’s, while so doing. No to the conversion to Islam, no to crying ageism, and, no to any sorry crutch that has become so prevalent in our pathetic society of today.

nadie on October 7, 2014 at 6:37 pm

oops, my apologies for the redundance. But I repeat myself a lot these days. Sorry.

nadie on October 7, 2014 at 6:39 pm

Fred Civis was a limited person. It may have been best to just reassign him to the stock room.

Worry on October 7, 2014 at 6:58 pm

    Reassigned? Yes, a long time ago, at least till he learned his lesson. There is something wrong with this man if he can’t take his boss and job seriously.
    Frankly, I don’t even like shaking hands with total strangers, and only hug family and close friends when they are looking for one. If these women were uncomfortable, obviously their instincts felt something about this man. Besides, hugging total strangers is just wrong and stupid.
    Personally, I feel there is more to his and the creepy father of your carpool’s story.

    theShadow on October 7, 2014 at 7:57 pm

I wonder if Mr. Civis is eligible for a pension after working there 39 years. If so, will he lose his pension eligibility because of this? Or would the company have had to pay more if he had been there 40 years?

Little Al on October 7, 2014 at 7:30 pm

After 39 years, the company should have had him evaluated for possible psychological issues (e.g., Aspergers). While a positive finding would not mean that it’s ok for him to continue his hugs, it might lead to treatment that would allow him to return to the only work he has known.

If there were a real issue, and he couldn’t improve, surely there was another job he could do at the same place. If there were no issue, then oh well, there are rules.

The legal stuff is absurd.

skzion on October 7, 2014 at 7:44 pm

    Good point, skzion. Inappropriate hugging is sometimes found in people with autism or Aspergers’ syndrome. If Fred Civis was warned, but he reflexively hugged people anyway, it sounds like he may well have such a disorder. He should seek psychiatric treatment–if he can afford it. If he, in fact, has such a disorder, then he would have a valid defense against the assault claim, as intent is required in an assault claim. And then he should get a lawyer specializing in employment claims, and seek to get his job back, claiming discrimination against him–should he be properly diagnosed as having one of those conditions I described. If they want to make a mountain out of a molehill by filing assault and battery chargers against him, then he should respond in like kind.

    RA: In fact, if he does have Asperger’s or autism, he would be able to seek treatment and sue the company for discrimination under the Americans With Disabilities Act. And he would probably win. DS

    Ralph Adamo on October 7, 2014 at 9:14 pm

I’n fed up with Aspergers bag-boys who crush my bread and other deficients who cause me headaches. Let them sell lightbulbs over the phone.

If this creepy crawler was “hugging” my wife or daughter, aside from the sexual aspects – forcing his body odor, sweat, shedding psoriasis skin flakes, etc., I’d press charges against him, too. Eff all the a-holes and their special needs.

DS_ROCKS! on October 7, 2014 at 9:33 pm

    Does this person have psoriasis? Or are you just stereotyping him?

    Hound1981 on October 8, 2014 at 1:18 am

    LOLOL DSR! You said what we all think one time or another so I really love your very UN-PC rant. I’m not ashamed to say I have felt that many times!!! 😀

    But I am too polite so I let it ride almost all the time. It don’t mean I ain’t annoyed, thou….

    20Skunky on October 8, 2014 at 3:20 pm

Sounds like the company was more than fair about it. I would expect any employee to be terminated after failing to heed prior warnings about undesired conduct.

PitandPen on October 7, 2014 at 10:20 pm

Small town, mentally deficient guy. Recall how despicable our society is getting.

Occam's Tool on October 7, 2014 at 10:21 pm

We agree that he is wrong.
But people, Asperger’s is not the same as mental retardation.
Plenty of people with Asperger’s syndrome go onto college and work jobs.
Look at Dr. Temple Grandin.
She is autistic and very bright.

Chary on October 7, 2014 at 11:53 pm

    She is autistic and very bright.

    No kidding. The Lanza kid and the Aurora movie freak were very bright, too.

    DS_ROCKS! on October 8, 2014 at 2:10 am

I agree with Sk-Zion and Worry, Definitely another job he could have done in the back, 39 yrs, small town, show some loyalty, its obvious he isn’t “All There” and being part Grizzly and part Teddy, they could definitely use his size for working the wearhouse or un-loading the t
delivery trucks.

A town of 2700, he knows everyone and has a wife. Let the man live. He is just showing people some love.

If they don’t hire him back, the people of the town should emulate the people of Ferguson, throw Molotov cocktails and raze the joint. Take em all to bloody hell for their lack of compassion.

MrBigBrain on October 8, 2014 at 3:01 am

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Biogeniste on October 8, 2014 at 8:09 am

IF he does indeed have some form of aspergers or autism i say give him a pass and rehire him… maybe now that he sees what can happen he can manage to restrain himself.

but, he had been warned by his employer… some customer’s avoided him as a cashier and that says to me he’d crossed the line repeatedly, with many people. invading someone’s personal space isn’t automatically assualt, but i can understand many people being offended, uncomfortable or violated by being hugged.

kirche on October 8, 2014 at 10:32 am

Creepy & inappropriate yes. I have never been one to hug just anyone. If we ever meet in person Deb, I might hug you though but it will start with a polite handshake. I remember as a kid we had a hugging-priest. Just as the church service would come to a close, he would dash out around the church and trap everyone at the exit to hug everyone as they left. His cologne was a mix of Old Spice & Black Flag ant spray I swear. I always managed to get the jump on him and escape.

#1 Vato on October 8, 2014 at 11:03 am

A man with mental problems, so this is a sad story.

Dee Kim on October 8, 2014 at 11:24 am

Being fired may not be the end of it. I wonder if he hugs people (or will start to) when away from the store.

I don’t think he should be punished now, but they need a way to compel him to stop and punish him if he does not stop.

I believe a suspended sentence is the way to go.

I_AM_ME on October 8, 2014 at 11:45 am

At worst the charge should have been disorderly conduct.

Michael Wader on October 8, 2014 at 12:12 pm

    or misdemeanor creepiness… a $25 fine and don’t let us catch you doing it again, mister.

    worse case, a judicial mistrangement order.

    (hat tip: ghostbusters II)

    kirche on October 8, 2014 at 4:32 pm

To me a criminal charge is just WAY too much! Perhaps those whose were hugged could have checked out in another line IF this hugging thing was in fact something they HATED!

That being said, perhaps the “huggees” were looking to bring a lawsuit against the store for having such an overly affectionate employee?

I do not like uninvited hugs and kisses on the cheek from ladies, men, little kids and teens to much. However, at my church it happens all the time. So I decided just to go with the FLOW of LOVE for each other and hug and kiss right back!! SMILES all around I tell you

It's just me again on October 8, 2014 at 12:12 pm

I am greatly surprised that Management at the store did not utilize this employee in stocking shelves, conditioning and cleaning the shelves, sweeping floors, helping out in the produce department or the meat department.

I truly blame the Management team for not working this bloke harder than what they did. Debbie and Skunky, if this bloke only cashiered and bagged for 39 years, I would definitely have a sit down with him and ask him why he is not hustling more and showing more ambition.

A grocery store or retail outlet is not the place to be hugging, kissing, or chasing any woman. You can get a reputation very fast, especially a small town.

With retail management being 90% women nowadays, this bloke will have a hard time getting another job.

Confederate on October 8, 2014 at 1:45 pm

It’s kinda ironic in this sick, sad world that peeps are going on about what a creepo this guy is yet it is absolutely normal and no longer looked down on when a girl will have sex (in all ways and in all forms) with a hornbag dude who has NO RESPECT for them within hours of meeting them. Gotta love it! Lucky men!! Thank you Feminism!!

Us Weekly (BDD’s favourite rag!) even does a cover story on the Duggars because they are not raging sluts and whores like too many chicks are today. What freaks they are! What weirdos! THAT is what Us Weekly is tacitly saying. Look at the Freak Show!

People Ruin Everyting. I hate being hugged and touched but I’d rather be polite about it and just move on or hi-tail it like DS did in her youth exiting the car. I avoid trouble and what I dislike.

People really suck. I kinda hate ’em.

S: Great minds think alike, as I posted about how People Mag criticized the Duggars and made the same point. Yup, they are all hypocrites and idiots. DS

19Skunky on October 8, 2014 at 3:13 pm

“People really suck. I kinda hate ‘em.”

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Skunky’s back, and hitting like Ty Cobb, singles, doubles, triples, everything, and making a .400 batting average an ordinary, every day occurrence.

Just like we’ve come to know and love from Skunky.

Alfredo from Puerto Rico on October 8, 2014 at 4:07 pm

BINGO Alfredo from PR! The Skunky insight was greatly missed!

Seeing her back makes me want to light up a Cohiba Red Dot…

PDMac60 on October 8, 2014 at 5:37 pm

    Aw, I got DS’ed! *Smile*

    You guys are so kind. Thanks for the kind words. I missed y’all too. This is a special bunch that chill here! I really love it!

    XXSkunky on October 8, 2014 at 6:20 pm

Ooh, a fine cigar, yes, would that I had a fine cigar to take my evening walk to the center of Secaucus with.

Alfredo from Puerto Rico on October 8, 2014 at 5:44 pm

DS_Rocks, Adam Lanza was a effin’ moron.
A worthless piece of garbage.
Do not call him “Bright”. Do not compliment that bastard. Do not give him credit for ANYTHING!
Most people with Asperger’s Syndrome are not like him.
I am not.
I would never harm a soul.
Do not compare me to that failed loser Adam Lanza who never dared to accomplish anything in life.
Adam Lanza was a burp.
I know I shouldn’t speak ill of the dead and I’m a hypocrite and rude for it.
But I hate what Lanza did.

Chary on October 8, 2014 at 7:42 pm

    Chary, I want to clarify something you said that proves the misnomer about Lanza is harmful and continues to lead peeps down the road of misinformation. Lanza did NOT have Aspergers. He was a sociopath. Now, I don’t think it’s your fault that you think he did. That is just what the media reported and what the shyster shrinks like to promote. But it isn’t true and I wish more people would say so.

    There is NOTHING about Lanza that made people think he was an Aspergers person. The psychiatric field is LOATHE to label people psychopaths when they SHOULD (it would help protect the public good). Because they fail to do so when they don’t know what to “label” someone they’ll use other affective disorders, personality disorders and made up sh** to mitigate the reality.

    I am pissed Lanza was fraudulently labeled as Aspergers because it destroys the reputation of REAL Aspergers people. It’s not fair and it is a dirty, dirty smear to a disorder that does not deserve to be lumped in with a psycho killer.

    Psychos should be pointed out and locked up to protect the public good. This will never happen when Moonbats and their ferkakte ways rule the roost. I think it’s one of the worst things the media and psychiatric field perpetuated in letting that psycho being seen as having Aspergers. Not fair. Not nice and it denigrates a group that doesn’t need a false and wicked misnomer sully them.

    That said, I did post a reply to DSR that did not go thru’. I said I loved his post because it was so Un-PC and he said what many of us think sometimes. I will admit I have thought what DSR posted. Sorry. Just being truthful. And it’s nice to know I am not the only one…

    YYSkunky on October 8, 2014 at 8:04 pm

I felt out of place around Brazilians, who I’d never met befeore, where a small hug and a peck on the cheek was the norm. But, hey, did I mention they’re from Brazil?

How do we know how to interact now? Schizophrenia seems more like our norm. Do I hold the door for a woman? Do I call her miss, mizzzzzzz, or mister because she’s the alpha between us, or what?

Yeah, I know I’ve got some learning to do. However, our social interaction in this country is anti-social. I used to have a neighbor that ignored me when I said “hello”. WTF? Oh, I get it. It’s just me.

nadie on October 8, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    Well, it’s not just Miss, Ms. or Mister anymore, it’s a whole witches brew of other things. After all, there’s . . .

    male, . . .

    female, . . .

    gender queer, . . .

    gender neutral, . . .

    transman, . . .

    transwoman, . . .

    and whatever else Facebook has on its list of accepted gender definitions, the largest database in the world of such classifications.

    ROTFLMAO!!!

    Y’know, there was a movie when I was growing up way back in 534 B.C. It was called . . .

    Stop The World, I Wanna Get Off!

    Uhhhh, like, . . . yeah, times SEVEN!!!

    Alfredo from Puerto Rico on October 8, 2014 at 9:02 pm

With as many women managers as there are in the grocery business, I am surprised this fellow survived even 20 years.

Any female manager worth her salt would have pulled this employee aside and given him a verbal warning along with a very harsh sermon about hugging women and covering all forms of sexual harassment with this employee.

No male employee of a grocery store even thinks about hugging a woman while he is on the clock.

I truly blame store management and upper level management for not acting on this employee after the first week of his employment with them.

Upper management and store level management should have instilled the company’s MISSION STATEMENT in this employee as well as all of their employees and act PASSIONATELY on that MISSION STATEMENT.

This former employee will now have a very hard task of getting another job as well as any Health Insurance at all.

Confederate on October 9, 2014 at 10:56 am

Just back the hell up, all of you, just back up, I acknowledged her first god d*mn it. It was me, who kept her name alive when she was on hiatus. ME. So back up!

MrBigBrain on October 10, 2014 at 3:07 pm

    You’re right, it was you, . . .

    good ol’ big teddy bear hunk of man, our very own . . .

    BigD.

    Uhhhhhhh, brotherman and head of B.U.A.N., I think . . .

    you just outed yourself.

    ROTFLMAO!!!

    It’s true, BigD virtually campaigned for Skunky.

    Lemmehearyagiveitupfuhthedogsinthehouse.

    Good to see you in any form. You spice things up around here.

    Now, on me, have a nice slice of waterm——, . . .

    GASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSP!!!

    LOL!!!

    Alfredo from Puerto Rico on October 15, 2014 at 10:12 am

Wise up, the guy’s a lecher.

Winston on October 14, 2014 at 10:26 am

Society has become too “huggy” and feminine. Men should only be hugging their wives, girlfriends and daughters. No wonder we are losing the war on Terror. Men in the west today behave like women.

Baptist on October 19, 2014 at 7:25 am

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