Good post. It’s an ongoing travesty of justice that Rose gets such treatment when, as you point out, these other SUPER criminals keep their gigs. Heck, Lewis even gets endorsement deals! Old spice stick deodarant! Tom Brady breeding like a male rabbit. After reading the book PROS AND CONS in the NFL I could never be a fan of football anymore. I see high light reels and that’s alright I guess.
I remember mimicking Rose as a little leaguer and still couldn’t care less about his betting. Not when serial rapists, and gang bangers now occupy positions all over sports. Especially.

samurai on September 14, 2010 at 11:16 am

He actually has been accused of and admitted to betting on games he managed, not games that he played in. He should go in the Hall as a player, and be banned from being a Manager. His work ethic was 100% all out every time he took the field. Now players only care about themselves, barely run out their hits and admire others when they should be running the bases at full speed.

Steve K on September 14, 2010 at 11:24 am

Debbie,

Yes, let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame, where his name belongs, for he did earn it fair and square.

Betting on games? Isn’t betting, and gambling, a popular phenomenon in the USA? Don’t people bet every weekend on college and pro football teams, basektball teams, hockey teams, baseball teams, fights, etc?

Meanwhile there are a few people whose names might be in the hall of fame whose performance was “enhanced” which people consider cheating.

Were Pete Rose’s accomplishments “enhanced?” If not, then why are some players Hall of Famers while enhanced, while Rose, who is not known to have used unacceptable performance enhancers, is banned?

If violent, drugged out, drunk thieves, murderers, etc., in the Hall of Fame, then a guy who played and hit as well as Peter Rose did, a guy whose “Sins” do not rise to the level of some of the others, like some you mentioned above, has even more right to be in the Hall of Fame.

William on September 14, 2010 at 11:26 am

[DS:All of the criminals I mentioned above are Black. Rose is White. So, it begs the question: are sports writers (many of whom vote on both baseball’s and football’s halls and who is admitted into them) racist?]

NO! First, aren’t most of these sports writers White? Second, OJ Simpson was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1985, almost 10 yrs before he was on trial (and ACQUITTED) for murder. I don’t know if he can be removed for his last conviction but that’s another story. As for LT, he hasn’t even gone to trial yet for statutory rape; innocent until proven guilty, remember?

As for Rose, obviously his crime is nothing compared to rape and murder but his crime of betting may have affected games depending on which allegations you want to believe.

[DS:Or is it a question of game purity–that the criminals never bet on the games they played or on the teams for which they played (as far as we know)?]

YES.

Norman Blitzer on September 14, 2010 at 11:31 am

[DS:What do you think? Should Pete Rose be allowed into baseball’s Hall of Fame?]

YES. He’s done enough punishment (and he deserved every bit of it but his achievements are undeniable).

Norman Blitzer on September 14, 2010 at 11:33 am

[Betting on games? Isn’t betting, and gambling, a popular phenomenon in the USA?
William on September 14, 2010 at 11:26 am]

Yes, but not when you’re an actual participant (e.g., player, manager etc.,.)

Norman Blitzer on September 14, 2010 at 11:35 am

I agree! “Charlie Hustle” is one of the very best players to play the game!

BK on September 14, 2010 at 11:40 am

Essentially, what you are asking is, is there justice in the world? While I tend to be sympathetic to Rose’s situation, I think that by dismantling an absolute (if you bet on baseball, you’re banned), baseball is abandoning just one more of its principles. It seems to me that we just keep surrendering to the inevitability of watered-down standards. Is it ever going to stop?

Rick on September 14, 2010 at 11:43 am

Sorry Debbie—this time I have to disagree with you. Rose should never be inducted into the HOF. He knew that gambling on baseball could bring this penalty, but thought the rules were for everyone else.

John on September 14, 2010 at 11:49 am

even tho i don’r like what he did to ray fossie, he belongs in the hall od fame because he was a great player.

augiedog on September 14, 2010 at 12:21 pm

I agree with John. Players involvement in sports betting almost once destroyed professional baseball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox) and players caught doing it ought to be banned for life in order to maintain the legitimacy of the league itself. Otherwise, it’s sports entertainment and no more legitimate a sport than Vince McMahon’s WWE.

B in Toronto on September 14, 2010 at 12:27 pm

This one is hard for me. I loved Pete as a player but when I found out he bet on baseball my image was shattered. Betting on your sport is the ultimate sin for a professional athlete. It’s what separates the NFL from pro Wrestling. Everyone knows wrestling is fixed. The NFL and MLB are not. If that line is blurred, the game dies. Why watch? the outcome is fixed. The owners and commissioner know this. So the lifetime ban is the death penalty. Once it is eased, even for Pete, the perception of a “clean” game is diminished. If that becomes diminished enough, then the viewership suffers, the TV money dries up, and the owners can’t let that happen. So Pete is sacrificed to keep the perception of a “pure” game alive and well. Is it fair? Well, he knew the rules and he broke them. Harsh but fair in my mind. Harsh for a good reason.

Kayser Sozay on September 14, 2010 at 12:31 pm

There is nothing legitimate about pro sports in this country. From the top to the very bottom. College sports are even worse. I quit watching grown men playing childrens games for a living in the seventies. Like politicians and lawyers, they produce nothing tangible or worthwhile, while garnering undeserved hero status and obscene profits. It’s almost as bad as watching an unwed mother with six kids blowing her welfare check at the liquer store on scratchoff tickets. Kinda harsh? Yeah, but that’s the way I see it.

Farmerjohn on September 14, 2010 at 12:46 pm

Rose broke one of the (if not THE) cardinal rules of baseball–no gambling or betting on baseball. There are so many subtle ways that a baseball game can be influenced (even subconsciously). That’s why the rule was adopted. Then, on top of that, he lied about betting on baseball for almost 20 years!
Rose shouldn’t be in the HOF, & it pains me as a Cincinnatian to say this.

Max Abel on September 14, 2010 at 12:50 pm

Vick, Lewis, and Stallworth shouldn’t be playing, Taylor and Simpson should be booted from the pro-football Hall of Fame. Rose doesen’t deserve to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Nobody gave ‘Shoeless Joe Jackson’ a break, and he didn’t even bet.

George W. on September 14, 2010 at 1:01 pm

If Rose should be admitted into the Hall of Fame,
then Reggie Bush shouldn’t have to give up his
Heisman.

El Zopilote on September 14, 2010 at 1:33 pm

He should be at Cooperstown. Why, he has paid a huge penalty for what he did, he clearly should be there on the baseball merits and as Debbie said, there folks that committed bad acts in all the sports halls of fame. Enough is enough already. And I dont even like Pete Rose, but I respect his game and he is not a person that committed violence against anyone.

rick geiger on September 14, 2010 at 1:38 pm

Shoeless Joe Jackson hasn’t played in nearly 100 years, and he is still blacklisted. I haven’t followed baseball since Rose was cast away by the game he loved. I say we offer all these misfits amnesty and put them in the HOF where they belong.

#1 Vato on September 14, 2010 at 2:00 pm

I couldn’t disagree more. There are very few absolutes in professional baseball, but the prohibition against betting on baseball is one of them. It’s not as if this is something new. Four players from the 1877 Louisville Grays (then a major league team) were banned after having conspired with gamblers. Hal Chase made a bit of a career out of it, and was subsequently banned for life. All rookies are instructed about how seriouly this prohibition is taken by Organized Baseball.

The only thing a professional prt has to sell is competition. If the actions of players lead to a public belief that said competition is not legitimate, why would anyone bother to watch? While I suppose professional wrestling could be used as an argument against this position, do we REALLY want to see
baseball devolve to THAT level?

If Shoeless Joe Jackson is banned in perpetuity for simply having knowledge of gambling activity, Pete Rose should most assuredly stay banned.

Islam Delenda Est on September 14, 2010 at 2:06 pm

Yes

sharon on September 14, 2010 at 2:09 pm

Unless Rose either bet on or fixed a game he should be in.

Walter Davis admitted to throwing an NBA game when he was with the Phoenix Suns and the league took absolutely no action against him (other then a suspension for drugs that he was going to get anyway – he played in the league after only serving the mandatory time for the drug suspension).

The Hall of Fame does not believe in rules anyway. Roberto Clemente (whom I was old enough to watch) was voted into the Hall of Fame less than a year after he died despite the fact that the rules required he be out of Baseball for five years (For the record I believe Clemente deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than a lot of those already in, I just object to the bending of the rules to get him in early).

I_AM_ME on September 14, 2010 at 2:22 pm

First off, Ray Lewis didn’t kill anybody. He was CHARGED with the murders of two people (not three) by the Atlanta prosecutor because of Georgia law (everyone who is in the “getaway vehicle” can be charged with the same crime) in order to force him to testify against who actually did it. The Atlanta district attorney (of whom I am not a fan even though he is one of the few high profile black DAs that supports the death penalty and also for pursuing life sentences against juvenile criminals) admitted as such. The idea that Ray Lewis, who has never been in trouble before or since in his life, would knife a couple of barbers from Ohio outside a night club after a Super Bowl party was ridiculous, and it has been generally acknowledged that by charging Lewis (who did hand a suitcase filled with bloody clothes to his lawyer) with murder the DA ruined the case.

Second, I am extremely disappointed in you for being yet another person who plays the race card in their defense of Pete Rose. Conservatives hate it when blacks raise the race issue where it has no business but have no problem doing the same themselves. This is further proof that conservatives and liberals are no different on race, and neither are whites or blacks. Both groups raise the issue when it favors them, and then take a phony, hypocritical “we need to move beyond race and be colorblind” angle. First off, give me the list of blacks who are in the baseball Hall of Fame (and Debbie you know perfectly well that other sports are irrelevant because each sport’s hall has its different rules and peculiarities, and that baseball has the highest standards, lots of guys that are in the NFL and NBA hall of fame would never get in the baseball one). Second, there are plenty of white louts, creeps, crooks and jerks in the respective Hall of Fame. For example, what is worse, gambling or creating a child and denying paternity? Larry Bird did the latter, ok?

Finally, to all Pete Rose fans, please end this nonsense. The reason why Pete Rose is not in the Hall of Fame is because IT WAS THE DEAL THAT HE NEGOTIATED WITH THE BASEBALL COMMISSIONER. Pete Rose cut a deal with the commissioner accepting a lifetime ban from Major League Baseball in return for a “finding” from the commissioner that he never bet on Reds games while managing the Reds. It was a “plea bargain” that the commissioner decided was in the best interests of Rose and the game, and Rose accepted it, not because Rose cared about the game – Rose only cares about himself, like most big time athletes. The commissioner made a mistake, because even though he held up his end of the deal, Rose IMMEDIATELY violated his end of the deal designed to save HIS REPUTATION (and shield him from legal action!) by going on a PR campaign to undermine it, by using an army of intermediaries to go to the press and talk about how unfair the whole thing was and make the (100% false) claim that the commissioner and baseball did it because they held some sort of grudge against him. And yes, part of Rose’s PR blitz was the repulsive racial strategy that he was some victim of reverse racism, another instance of how “those black folk get whatever they want while good white folks, get the shaft.” Yeah, like that’s going to happen in baseball, where barely 7% of the players are black and an even smaller percentage of fans are. (Incidentally, I should point out that based on his own comments, Rose personally has very low regard for black people, including his own teammates who contributed greatly to his career success and the fans who cheered for him, so it is not the least bit surprising that Rose took a page from the Pat Buchanan playbook/Strom Thurmond/Jesse Helms.) Had the commissioner, I think it was Bart Giamatti, known that Rose was going to spend decades attempting to undermine their agreement, he would have never made it. All of Rose’s activities – not just what Rose has chosen to confess to – would have been fully known to the fans, the media and oh yes the FBI (please recall that Rose was already in trouble with the IRS and ultimately wound up serving 5 months in jail for tax evasion, and the feds would have simply added the gambling stuff to their case against him) and Rose would have far fewer people sympathetic to his plight than he has now. Basically, Giamatti acted to confront Rose’s increasingly self-destructive gambling addiction (and other problems, look Rose was out of control), protect his reputation and prevent him from spending several years in federal prison instead of several months, and Rose turns around and stabs him in the back, making sure that the man was one of the most hated figures in sports when he died thanks to Rose’s cowardly PR campaign (during which he never directly or personally confronted Giamatti, who unlike Rose held his end of the bargain and generally remained silent). That’s why every commissioner since Giamatti has upheld Giamatti’s decision despite being under significant pressure from Rose’s fans to reverse it (that and their institutional knowledge of the mountain of evidence against Rose that remains hidden from public view). Save a guy from totally destroying himself and get a knife in a back in return. Gee thanks, no postcard required or desired, Mr. Rose!

For the record, I would be in favor of putting Rose in the Hall of Fame had he not violated his agreement with Giamatti. Since he did so, I say keep Rose out of the Hall of Fame until he passes away, and THEN put him in. That way, Rose doesn’t get to benefit from his treachery against Giamatti AND the integrity of Major League Baseball is preserved by putting the all time leader in hits in the Hall of Fame.

By the way, the guy whose hits record Rose broke that you mentioned above? Ty Cobb. Funny that guy wasn’t on your list of low lives that are in the Hall of Fame. That guy was so contemptuous that they weren’t even able to build a memorial for him in his hometown. Yet, no one has ever stated that Cobb is unworthy of the Hall of Fame, not even the black activist types (Cobb was a virulent racist, and there are rumors that he murdered a black man and got away with it). But hey, when you are playing the race card, why bother checking the deck?

Gerald on September 14, 2010 at 4:39 pm

That should have been “give the the list of blacks who were found to have gambled on games involving teams that they managed that are in the Hall of Fame.”

Gerald on September 14, 2010 at 4:42 pm

Yet another update: it appears that the very frequent allegations of racism against Ty Cobb may be overstated.

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess02.html

My main point is still good, though.

Gerald on September 14, 2010 at 4:50 pm

The accomplishment was real, even if Rose turned out to be scum in the end. If he had cheated or used some chemical enhancements to achieve the result, that would be a different matter. Pete Rose’s offenses occurred after his accomplishment.

Worry01 on September 14, 2010 at 5:01 pm

As a lifelong Indians fan I think that his exclusion from the Hall to this point has been justified for running over Ray Fosse to end that sixteen inning All-Star game back in the day. Yeah, I know, it’s all part of the game, so just call me a sore loser. Besides, although Fosse did return he never was quite the same after that. Fosse’s been out of the game for a long time now (as have the Indians) so I agree that Rose should now be eligible for induction.

CornCoLeo on September 14, 2010 at 5:26 pm

WOW, Gerald, take a breath dude…and get a life. You had valid points and actually had me reading with interest until you brought up the racism and used it to slam Conservatives. Your credibility just went out the window, or down the toilet, take your pick…as for Rose and the Hall of Fame, its recognition for your achievements ON THE PLAYING FIELD that are supposed to be honored there…no one can deny that Pete was one who took what God gave him and used it FULLY. Pete Rose wasn’t blessed with the most athleticism in the world, but he worked hard and tirelessly to make the most of what he had. The record he broke was considered by most to be unreachable then and since…it may never be equalled. Pete admitted (rather late I agree) to betting on baseball, but steadfastly denies betting AGAINST his team…for me thats where the line is. IF there were evidence to the contrary I would be in favor of keeping him out…however, since none exists, and everything points to his betting ON the Reds and never AGAINST the Reds, his accomplishments ON THE FIELD should reap their reward with enshrinement in the Hall.

Tony on September 14, 2010 at 6:22 pm

B-b-but Debbie! Rose is white! It would be an unpardonable affront to the masses of oppressed afro-americans if Rose were to “leapfrog” their humble heroes on a fast track to MLB immortality!

Graty Slapchop on September 14, 2010 at 6:54 pm

no way rose should be reinstated until joe jackson is

nor should he be in the hall till jackson is

the proof jackson’s wrongding is laughable

and it would be farcical to put either in the hall until roger maris is

maris was never even accused of wrongdoing

elmerbittlinger on September 14, 2010 at 7:16 pm

Rose and Jackson both belong in the HOF. Purity of racial thoughts is not a criterion, or at least, unless PC is even worse than I thought.

And PC is so much a part of baseball that it has to be considered as a likely explanation whenever there’s a situation like this. How much do you want to bet that black players using steroids have no trouble getting into the HOF?

Little Al on September 14, 2010 at 7:29 pm

Yes, sportswriters DO hold Whites to a higher standard.Decades ago, when civilization still existed in this country, We did originally hold them to the higher standards, but then,as usual, they whined and complained that it was too hard and racist to do so,so the owners,Leftist White and Jewish media,intellectuals,and other “know-it-alls” on the Left,sided with them instead of right way,and the end result is what we’ve been forced to suffer gladly, over the last 40-45 years -Ali,Duane Thomas,Dick Allen,Reggie Jackson,Alan Page,Elmo Wright,Mercury Morris,Harry Edwards,Dave Parker,Deion Sanders,the late linebacker Derrick Thomas( SEVEN children, with FIVE different women ),Sean Kemp – the list of obnoxious,anti-social destruction of the higher standards by such Black athletes is almost endless.

Phineas on September 14, 2010 at 8:35 pm

Hall of Fame as a player but not a manager. I played ball like Rose going all out every dang second. It should be a human rights violation the way he is treated–it’s sad, cruel, and inhumane. He loved playing the game and I wish more Pete Roses were around playing today in the MLB.

soyphobia on September 14, 2010 at 8:39 pm

I admired Pete Rose when I was young and tried to emulate him by hustling in every legion game I played, but I was sickened by what he did to Ray Fossie in the All-Star Game. He probably should be admitted to the Hall of Fame for his achievements, bit it’s only sports and who really cares.

Aaron on September 14, 2010 at 10:38 pm

I remember the play where Fossee was hurt. It was a clean play with unfortunate results. It was the All Star game when it meant something to be an All Star. Rose always played 100% like I stated before.

I have a question for everyone now. Should Alex Rodriguez be in the Hall of Fame after he retires? He admitted to steroid use for 3 years so that most likely means he used them for much longer. The excuse “well they were not banned in baseball” does not hold up, they are illegal. By this reasoning if you murdered someone during a game, you would be alright since there is no specific rule banning murder in the baseball rule book.

I am just curious to your thoughts, not trying to start any political discussions or hijack Debbie’s board.

Steve K on September 15, 2010 at 5:41 am

Everytime Michael Jordan played golf he bet. He didn’t bet against himself, but neither did Pete Rose. Shall we band Jordan from basketball’s hall of fame?

burt on September 15, 2010 at 10:17 am

He bet on baseball. Every pro player is warned not to do it. Every rookie knows not to do it. He does not belong in the Hall.

Fleiter on September 15, 2010 at 10:22 am

Pete Rose bet on games he managed but he wasn’t accused of trying to lose or change outcomes. He deserves a break and should be let in the Hall. He should just say he had an addiction like all his fellow players who were snorting everything but the chalk on the field and altering games and suffering no consequences from MLB. As for Ray Lewis, it’s true he killed two people not three as far as we know. He was involved up to his eyeballs in those Atlanta murders and the fact that he lied repeatedly and changed his story of the events didn’t make him innocent. Luckily for the Ravens, nobody cared about victims or the disposable defendants and nobody had any appetite to go after a famous defendant in a crummy case without a videotape of the stabbings.

A1 on September 15, 2010 at 11:19 am

The crime against baseball committed by Rose goes to the very core of the game, integrity. If you cannot be 100% sure that the “fix” is not in on any game, as someone said earlier, it’s just pro wrestling or roller derby. If you DO want Rose in, then the steroid issue becomes a non-issue, cheating does not matter, in other words.

WilliamMunny on September 15, 2010 at 12:22 pm

Of course Pete Rose should be admitted into Baseball’s Hall of Fame. And joining him should be Shoeless Joe Jackson.
There are times I find myself shaking my head at the hypocrisy of those who have been entrusted with power…. especially when it comes to voting.
Were there really 7 voting members of the Hall who actaully thought Hank Aaron didn’t deserve to go in when his name was first placed on a ballot?
Fair is fair. And what a player does on the field should be the criteria for induction. Pete made mistakes. So did every other person voted into the Hall, because that is what human beings do. But let’s don’t wait until someone passes away to acknowledge the good things they did in their lives.

Dan on September 15, 2010 at 3:26 pm

How can Major League Baseball recognize the accomplishments of cheaters such as Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire, and pretend that Rose doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame? Sosa and McGwire actually cheated, as players. Rose was alleged to have bet on his team as a manager, which does nothing to diminish his accomplishments on the field as a player.

Recognizing the accomplishments of cheaters makes a travesty of the “purity of the game” argument.

Brian on September 15, 2010 at 4:28 pm

It bothers me that a man that loved baseball more than anything can not get in in the hall of fame NFL is full of
poor examples for our youth and in a time when Fantasy Leagues
are all of the norm (gambling) We cannot get a man who broke all records drew a bigger audience cannot get in shows me that
HF is set up for only self serving reasons As a person you may not like him for talent you cannot deny him

Beth Corby on September 18, 2010 at 8:25 pm

I know this was from a while back, but i just stumbled onto this after a discussion with my friends about this very thing. I personally think you’re looking at this backwards. Baseball seems to (mostly) be able to control their players. Few of them rape, murder and rob on their non-game days. They’re not coming from all that different of a background than most of the NFL players and yet the NFL guys seem to time and time again fall out of line. Sure the sport is a bit more violent, but it still has rules and codes of conduct. To say that Rose should be in the Baseball hall of fame because the NFL is stupid enough to leave their criminals IN is faulty logic. Shouldn’t we really be asking the NFL to remove those who tarnish the name of the NFL out of their hall of fame and to get the NFL to make their players live up to a higher standard as baseball does to their players?

Sure the lifetime ban is silly and a tough call, but you know what, the guys are a bit more careful now and since rose we haven’t had a lot of guys busted for betting on their own teams. Sure we’ve seen the steroids scandal come flying out at us, but even that is being taken on head first by the franchise. The NFL could learn a lot from the heavy handed penalties that are being dolled out by the MLB.

it’s time for the NFL to stop being the “Oh it’s ok jimmy, you didn’t mean to set the house on fire” parent and being the “get to your room you’re grounded!” parent that their players need.

ielle on December 14, 2010 at 8:18 am

I don’t think he should be in the Hall. The players you mentioned were all FOOTBALL players, Deb.

Ron Santo, on the other hand…

Occam's Tool on March 18, 2011 at 3:41 pm

All those who would be interested in going into business with Pete Rose should email me ASAP. Full details will be sent.

Tom on April 9, 2011 at 8:55 pm

Pete Rose deserved to be punished. However, much like Jonathan Pollard, the punishment is far more severe than that for people who have done far worse.

Pete deserves to have the ban lifted and be eligible for the Hall of Fame. 25 years is enough. I think Deb makes a good point to suggest racism may be playing a factor here. After all, we KNOW anti-Semitism has played a role in the severity of Jonathan Pollard’s punishment.

There is NO Santa Claus on October 25, 2012 at 9:53 pm