Conservative vs. Conservative

Man, I’m loving this thread! I’m getting me some popcorn and beer!

Norman Blitzer on June 10, 2010 at 10:50 pm

Re:

“Thats a good one. Lebanese Christians are the ONLY CHRISTIANS who have political power in the middle east. They have far more rights and freedoms than any Christian in Israel. Even the State Department reports on Religious freedom say that.”

antoine on June 10, 2010 at 9:45 am

You believe what our Arabist State Department says?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I hope that you read Shy Guy’s link at his 10:04 am post that will hopefully liberate you from that illusion.

JeffE on June 10, 2010 at 10:58 pm

Please do not confuse Catholic with the term Christian any more than you would confuse Baptist or Assembly of God or Presbyterian with the term Christian. True Christians are Christ-followers. They are those who believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah and they put their faith in Him and Him alone for life eternal. There are Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, Assembly of God members who are Christ followers but being the member of a denomination does not even come close to the Biblical definition of a Christian.

For starters, Debbie, a true Christ-follower would surrender his or her life before going against Israel or the people of Israel much less even consider a disparaging remark about God’s chosen people.

Genesis 12: 1-3 King James Version

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Furthermore, true believers, CHRIST-ians—-including me are grieving currently due to the policies this nation is taking towards Israel. Many of us started the grief process when Condoleeza Rice insisted that Israel give up Gaza in 2005. Joel 3:1-2 sums up what is coming to America for it’s role in tampering with the land God gave Israel:

Joel 3

1For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

My respect and adoration goes beyond my Faith. Two of my mother’s sisters married Jewish men. I learned at an early age growing up in the South what antisemitism was. I remember crying at the age of 8 when I watched the segment of the 1972 Summer Olympics when scenes from the Holocaust were shown. Both of my uncles of Hebrew lineage instilled into us the need for and healthy respect of firearms. To this day, all of the children of Mother and her sisters are well armed. We understand that the Second Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with hunting or target practice. We know it is the last measure against a tyrannical government. We know what happened in Europe in the 1930’s and 1940’s when lawful citizens were stripped of their right to own a rifle and/or handgun.

Press on Debbie and never waiver. Be assured the true Christians are praying fervently for Israel. Be assured followers of Christ will never forsake Israel or its people even to their own peril. There are not many of us but we are out there. And we were there in the Holocaust. Ten Boom, Schindler, Hans and Sophie Scholl, Bonhoeffer, Von Moltke are some names that come to mind. These saints stood firm when the times called for it. May we be bold enough to do the same.

Andrew on June 11, 2010 at 1:23 am

I’ve got a question for anyone here. I am Roman Catholic and a Christian. As you probably know, I support Israel and the Jews. All of this Catholic bashing here doesn’t take into account the majority of us who do condemn many non-religious based stands of the Catholic church.

So the question is – What does that make me? Do you put me in the same catagory as the Pope? Just because there are a few screwballs in the Catholic church, it does not mean that the rest of us condone their bad behavior. BTW, all religions have some screwed up people.

Jarhead on June 11, 2010 at 11:42 am

I feel for you Jarhead. I am Jewish and most Orthodox Rabbi’s promote many idea’s that are openly against the bible says and puts the Jewish people in danger in the real world.

The Orthodox Rabbi’s teach women to have contempt for most Jewish men that are not Rabbi’s. They let Jewish women marry nonjewish men with no consequences even though the bible in Deutoronomy 7:3 warns both MEN AND WOMEN that by doing this you’re children will be led to various idolatry an this was to warn Jews of both genders not to marry these nations that were practicing these kinds of idolatry. You think a son from a nonjewish father may become a fifth column. It is very very possible in the real world in addition to various pagan practices he may develop and women too from homes like this. In the real world it is a real risk to allow this but the Rabbi’s hate Jewish men and have for a long, long time and do everything they can to undermine them and do nothing to protect them from unscrupulous women. So please our own religious leaders have a history of bigotry towards Jewish men and promoting this in their synogagues. It is all about the same thing and that is them putting their own power above what the bible really says.

I know for a fact from dating a number of women that were converting that the Orthodox Rabbi’s would teach them that men don’t want to have children and teaching them to have contempt for Jewish men. So in my view our religious leaders are as bigotted as anyone else is to teach Jewish women to have contempt for Jewish men that aren’t part of their Rabbinic clique.

adam on June 12, 2010 at 10:14 pm

The Pope never bet on any side.

No Popes ever pandered to Islam’s incorrigibles. The Church has been addressing the plight of Christians in the Middle East through local, and regional bodies of the Church. The Pope is being more vocal now because that is what he thinks is needed.

The primary duty of the Pope is to the household of faith.

The Pope is not being PC as some contend.

The Pope is simply fulfilling his role as the on-going Peter, Keys of the Kingdom holder. Looking to the needs of the flock. Catholics, of any rite, and other Christians hardly need to be exposed to further Islamic radicalism, especially in nations where Catholics are a precarious minority. A few years ago several clergy and nuns were murdered when the Pope took a more direct approach in criticizing Islam. The church in Holland, in World War II, paid a dear price for directly criticizing the Nazis.

The Pope in Rome has to ALWAYS bear in mind his words can have very real and deadly consequences for Catholics, and Christians, abroad. In Muslim nations.

Peter, as he closed off his first epistle writes from Babylon which was code for Rome.

Why announce his location, directly, in a letter that could have many readers? And which might have resulted in house to house searches in Rome, for the much wanted apostle, had his presence there, in that city, been known? Why endanger the whole Christian community in Rome?

Protect the flock. Through the ages.

From the Church’s very beginning it was a directive ordered directly by the Son of Man, Jesus, himself.

The Pope is not going to play loose and fast with the lives of Middle-East Christians. We all know 90% of Muslims worldwide have IQs hovering close to 80 peanuts. And how reactionary they are. We know what those brutes are capable of.

Proceed with caution.

And the Vatican has been more than superhumanly patient considering how the State of Israel has treated it. Ask the rabbi, don’t ask me.

SEE: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/rabbi-calls-israel-s-treatment-of-vatican-outrageous-1.261548

That said, I side with Israel on the recent Gaza flotilla incident.

I also disagree with State of Israel abolishing state grants to yeshiva students.

The Canadien on June 14, 2010 at 8:07 am

Yes, Andrew listen to Shy Guy.

How can you witness to Debbie when you aren’t even using the right bible?

Every knowledgeable Christian alive knows that Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Septuagint. Yet your Protestant bibles are based on the Jamnian canon of the Old Testament, not the Septuagint.

Yet, the Septuagint canon was used universally by all Jews up to the time of Jesus.

When Jesus said, “search through Scripture” in John 5:39 he meant the Septuagint.

So why do your Protestant bibles use the Jamnian, or Palestinian canon, of the Old Testament, a canon that has had 7 books ripped out of it?

A canon that has been deliberately rewritten, altered, changed (all the things God warned the people of Israel, not to do)…to nullify Jesus’s obvious fulfilment of the Scriptures?

I’ll stop here—

Back to sleep Andrew.

The Canadien on June 14, 2010 at 8:51 am

C’mon, Shy Guy.

Don’t skirt the issue I raised with Andy.

The Romans destroyed the Temple.

The Ark was captured and displayed in Rome for a while alongside the Temple furnishings. The Ark was then melted down, and lost forever! FOREVER!!

With no Temple to offer sacrifice, or to perform the liturgies in, that was required by the Torah…and with the Ark melted down…there was a real crisis in Judaism.

Not to mention a million Jews had been freshly slaughtered by the Romans or their by their fellow Jewish citizens.

Those Jews lucky enough to survive the rebellion against the Roman Empire, and their Roman and/or fellow Jewish butchers…began converting to Christianity.

At a truly alarming rate.

Who could stop this new exodus?

Enter, Jochanan ben Zakki, and a hard core group of remaining rabbis who denied that Christ was the Messiah. They gathered at Jamnia, these zealous rabbis, and were determined to preserve Judaism, the scared trust of their forebears.

The only way to do that?

A new form of Judaism had to be created.

One that would unite all the remaining Jewish sects. One that would rebuild the Temple one day, and somehow get the captured Ark back. It always happened like that before. It just wouldn’t happen this time. Almost two thousand years, and counting.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, the very foundation for this new Judaism had to be a new version of Jewish Scripture! These mission-critical rabbis, led by Jochanan, heavily influenced by the theological leaning of the Sadducee party, finally produced their reductionist bible. A fundamentalist bible. Literalists.

Heretics, really.

The oral Torah teachings of the resurrection of the dead and life everlasting were ejected.

To undercut the Christian claims of Jesus’s divinity, and that he was the Christ…seven whole books from the Old Testament had to be eliminated. Seven! And while they were at it, problematic sections of the Old Testament, that Christian evangelists were using successfully to convert fair-minded Jews…were now simply rewritten. Especially, those prophetic texts that pointed to Jesus.

The Jamnian canon has been purposely changed—yet it is presented to the unknowing as as if it were the ancient and genuine version! Laughs!

C’MON!

It is radically different from the original text of the Septuagint, and missing entire books.

We both know it ~

Either way, this is common knowledge, Shy Guy, in Catholic circles.

For instance, the Jamnian translator known as Aquina removed the word parthenos (virgin) from Isaiah 7:14, and reworked the passage as neanis a young woman shall conceive. And then these Scripture changers, falsifiers, liars, could assert that Isaiah’s prophesy didn’t match what the Christians were saying about Christ!

May God have mercy on their souls.

But their ploy has worked mostly…right up to this very day.

The disciples didn’t die for a lie. You are living a lie.

In good faith, hopefully…

The Canadien on June 14, 2010 at 12:13 pm

A MESSAGE FROM JESUS TO A GENTILE FOLLOWER:

“The woman said to him, ‘Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for Salvation is from the Jews.'” (John 4:19-22)

The rest of the NT is irrelevant and redundant !!

yamit on June 14, 2010 at 3:38 pm

A MESSAGE FOR THE NATIONS:

“O nations: Sing the praises of His People, for He will avenge the blood of His Servants; He will bring retribution upon His adversaries, and He will appease His Land [and] His People.” (Deuteronomy 32:43)

A MESSAGE FOR THE ANOINTED ONE OF ISRAEL:

“Thus declared HaShem, Master of Legions, saying, ‘This [Jewish] people has said: “The time has not yet come!” [But I say:] “It is time for the Temple of HaShem to be rebuilt!”‘” (Haggai 1:2)

yamit on June 14, 2010 at 3:44 pm

Yamit…I don’t accept Rt. Rev. George Arthur Butterick take on things. Or, yours.

Like every Protestant he, in, and of himself, comes to the wrong conclusion on the matter. We Catholics know that early transcribed books of the Old and New Testament for common usage were of poor quality. The demand was great, and the labourers few.

St Jerome noted the Latin books by the fourth century had serious discrepancies. And remember, they had to be translated from the Greek Septuagint into Latin to be used in the Mass at the local parish.

So St Jerome went into the desert.

St Jerome emerged 35 years later, in 426, with a completed, standardized, Latin translation of the entire Bible, corrected entirely. The Vulgate.

St Jerome, the first trilingual (Greek, Hebrew, and Latin) scholar noted in history, used to entertain Hebrew scholars, there in the dessert, as he set about his transcribing. St Jerome knew the Hebrew Scriptures better than anybody alive in those days, and rabbis came to him when they had troubling questions.

Preposterous, you say!

Insane!!

Liar!!!

Why would the Jewish hierarchy go to a Catholic, a desert monk, to answer their Scriptural questions?

Are you sitting down, yamit? Shy Guy?

Because Jerome ALONE preserved many PRE-JAMNIAN TEXTS that you changers, destroyed. Hebrew scholars today still regard Saint Jerome as authoritative. Look it up!

As always, Shy Guy your html coding has a smooth, graceful delivery.

It’s just your answers, have a real emptiness to them.

I want to know the truth, just for the sake of knowing the truth. That’s how I found the God of Israel inside the Catholic Church, where He has his new base of operations, alongside a new revelation from the One, and only God of all.

And I dispense with everything else, that fails to measure up.

Not everything in Israel, however, fails to measure up, though:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22931262@N07/4698882523/

The Canadien on June 14, 2010 at 5:27 pm

Unlike you, apparently, I can appreciate beauty…and leave it at that.

Just like the Jehovah Witness’s New World Translation bible, which is a blatant retranslation of the Scriptures, revised and edited, for the specific purpose of agreeing with JW doctrine, so is your Old Testament!

For Jehovah Witnesses, cross BECOMES torture stake…just because Witnesses don’t believe Jesus was crucified on a cross.

And for Judaism, virgin must be retranslated young woman…to stop the conversions to Catholicism!

Some ATHEISTS use Jewish arguments to attempt to disprove Christianity. But when I tell them that their Protestant or Jewish bible has been changed…my bible has 73 books for instance…my Old Testament is complete…and do they know about Jamnia?

Well, that stops ’em, right there.

Then I send those rogues over to iTunes to download Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft’s free podcasts. There is something quite fantastic in these 39 live talks of his. For them, “The Existence of God”, “Mere Christianity”, “Shocking Beauty”, and “The One Thing Needed” seems to make significant inroads.

Shy Guy you are kinda isolated there in Israel. In Toronto, I attended one class of an RCIA course (Christian Initiation) a few years back, just out of curiosity (I’ve been through this already) and was surprised to find there were hundreds of multinational people there! It lasts four months, and was run by a Toronto historian, a former Anglican, who is now a Catholic.

People are hungry for God.

People want to find God.

I hope you’re helping, and not hindering.

The Canadien on June 15, 2010 at 5:47 am

Many of the oldest Biblical fragments among the Dead Sea Scrolls, particularly those in Aramaic, correspond MORE CLOSELY with the LXX than with the Masoretic text. This confirms the scholarly consensus that the LXX represents a separate HEBREW-TEXT TRADITION from that which was later standardized as the Masoretic text!

No kidding.

In the Early Christian Church, the presumed fact was that the Septuagint was translated by Jews BEFORE the era of Christ, and that the Septuagint at certain places gives itself more to a christological interpretation than then (say, 2nd century) Hebrew texts, was taken as evidence, that “Jews” had changed the Hebrew text in a way that made them less christological.

For example Irenaeus concerning Isaiah 7.14: The Septuagint clearly writes of a virgin that shall conceive. While the Hebrew text was, according to Irenaeus, at that time interpreted by Theodotion and Aquila (both proselytes of the Jewish faith) as a young woman that shall conceive. And according to Irenaeus the Ebionites used this to claim that Joseph was the (biological) father of Jesus.
From Irenaus point of view that was pure heresy, facilitated by (late) anti-Christian alterations of the scripture in Hebrew, as evident by the OLDER, PRE-CHRISTIAN, Septuagint.

Wow right from the Wikipedia.

Poor Rabbi Gutman Locks. He believes God appeared to Moses in a burning bush…yet finds it incomprehensible God would appear amongst men as one of them! God can never be less than Himself, but he can also assume the physical properties of anything He so desires! For any purpose He desires.

To get the attention of Moses. Or to save a world.

Within a burning bush, or within a man.

Anyway, back to sleep, Shy Guy. You lost.

And God wins.

The world IS being converted.

Keep your neck stiff…and don’t slam the door, on your way out! Thanks.

The Canadien on June 16, 2010 at 7:23 pm

Well, first of all if anyone reads the Brit Hadasha (New Testament/Covenant) he will sees it is completely a Jewish matter.

It has nothing to do with the Gentiles, only that salvation has reached the Gentiles as well. But first the Jews.

Jesus (Yeshua is his real name) was Jewish, his 12 disciples were Jewish, the thousands first “Christians” were Jewish, the crow was mostly Jewish, He preached in Synagogues, in the temple, the oldest mention of the word rabbi is in the Brit Hadasha, all its content deals with Jewish concepts found in the Tanak.

Yes hypocitical religious Jews are condemned by Yeshua. ut in so doing he condemns all hyprocrisy.

In case you don’t know the Son of od, Bethelehem, Nazareth, the crucifiction, the death of the Messiah, His return, the light of salvation going to the whole world etc… are all found in the Tanak.

Just a few examples here concerning the fact that the Messiah is supposed to be God come into flesh:

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

and of course Isaih 53 tells about the death of the Messiah for the sins of His people and of the world.

I could list many more… but just those 2 are powerful enough to show you that whether you believe Yeshua is the Messiah or not, the Messiah you wait for has to fulfill at least those 2 prophecies, and He must be G.od

So…it’s up to you to be honest with yourself and ask Hashem directly whether Yeshua is the Servant who was to come and who will come back to judge the nations and bring His messianic reigh.

Ont the other hand, real Christianity is 100% JEWISH and has nothing to do with Catholicism.

So if you really believe the Bible you should get out of this so-called church. Yeshua said His Church is made of beleivers in Him, and we are His body parts. It’s not a building nor an organization.

But the Vatican and other organizations like it (cults?? yes!)
are not gonna tell it like it is. That’s why they forbade the Bible to the common man. Only recently (since nbow there’s so much spiritual confusion, and most people don’t really care about sound biblical doctrine) they allow people to read the Bible. But all they want is your money.

The so called “holy father” cannot be biblical since the only Holy Father is Hashem… that should make Catholics think twice before calling themselves Catholics…

Anyway, the Creator didn’t die for an organization but that we may have eternal life and fellowship with Him and one another.

Jews are the first fruits to receive the Good News and should be the ligh of the world and the most excited about all this that Hashem has been doing for thousands years.

Because time is running fast and judgement is coming soon for evil doers.

Turn to Yeshua He is the light of the world, the redeemer, the Eternal One, Sar Shalom :

Isaiah 9:6
“For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. ”

The LORD doesn’t force anybody but he respects our decisions, whatever the consequences good or bad.

It’s about eternal destiny folks, so make this the top priority question in your life and seek answers directly to the Father and no middle man required. Only the blood of Yehsua allws us to be purified and forgiven when we repent and put our faith in Him.

he allows us to live renewd life against sin… who did that in the whole world’s history..onyl a Jews from 2000 years ago, made in Israel of course! 🙂

Dah Veed (David) on July 30, 2010 at 1:34 pm