European flight from it’s Christian roots and increased atheism is a fairly recent phenomenon and is due to a number of factors, mostly having to do with the two world wars and ideologies that emerged out of those. The explanation is too long to be written here, I’ll propably deal with the subject on my blog. The main paradox is that former communist countries were saved from such a development since living under an atheist dictatorship made those people appreciate their tradition.

Witch-king of Angmar on September 12, 2007 at 3:58 pm

A heartfelt thank you Debbie for your support of Christian thought in America. Any Christian worth his/her salt knows the Judeo roots of our religion and our common struggle against freedom hating Muslims and paranoid liberal-atheists.
OK, those of you that comprise the two latter groups…flame away! Lets hear all your standard boilerplate comments about bigoted, racist, hypocritical Christians. By all means don’t leave out your “Inquisition”, “Crusades” and “Salem witch hunt” talking points. Likewise, I’ll be disappointed if you fail to mention Falwell, Roberstson, Swaggert or Jim Baker. All that I can say to you is that we ALL fall short of Christ himself. Just be thankful that believers in a Judeo-Christian God have been there to protect your freedoms and to fight your enemies. From what I see in Secular America, you have neither the courage, intelligence or the conviction to fight for yourselves.

Southernops on September 12, 2007 at 4:04 pm

There is no doubt at all that the Founding Fathers intended this to be a Christian country. They intended people to have freedom of religion, including your freedom to practice Judaism, Debbie, but they never intended anything like what has actually developed. The Christian faith spread like wild fire on the developing frontier of the American continent during the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries, and there was never any question of any other religion becoming dominant in America during that time period. The massive physical and social dislocations that occurred as a result of WW II were the beginnings of the softening of belief in America. Materialism in the 1950’s was a factor, and the shock of Sputnik caused Americans to begin to look to science for answers rather than to God. In the 1960’s we had the great rebellion that over threw all conventional morality, particularly in the areas of sexual relations and the work ethic. Many Christian Churches began to dilute their message at that time in an effort to remain “relevant,” a fatal error in every case. This has given rise to the great decline in Christianity in America, because so much of American Christianity is no longer truly Christian. In spite all this, however, there is still a spark of Christianity to be found, and most people still think of this as a Christian nation, thanks be to God! This gets us off in to “remnant theology,” a topic that will surely be familiar to anyone coming from a Jewish background.

Dr. D on September 12, 2007 at 4:17 pm

“Once we lose our Christian identity, we will lose our country”
Amen to that and thank you for standing up and saying so! I also firmly believe this and I tend more towards agnostic then anything else. A largely Christian, largely Western Culture and yes even largely white country is what has made this nation strong and in fact is what has been instrumental up to this point, current events aside, in helping to prevent worldwide tyranny.

AlturaCt on September 12, 2007 at 4:24 pm

Witch King,
As for the European problem with the lack of Christianity/religion stemming from WWII, I guess it made people go to one extreme or the other. IT made them either more religious or atheist. I see no clearer evidence of God v. Satan than WWII. Yes I know no one mentions satan anymore but how much more depraved can a person be than Hitler to say that he was not evil through and through? How can anyone not see the evil and blackness that can take hold of a soul in the Nazis who slaughtered so many innocent people?
I guess this is another bag of worms, but thinking back on all the atrocities of the Holocaust/war makes me more Christian, to see the extremes of good and evil face off.
Of course, I didn’t live through any of it, wasn’t alive then, and I have no idea how I would have maintained my faith after living through such horrible events but grandfather was in WWII and I think that made him turn to God more.
(sarc on)
Oh, Southernops, don’t forget to mention that Hitler was Catholic you know, just following the Pope’s teachings. Of course Rosie O’Donnel and Madonna were baptized Catholic too. (sarc off)
Anyway, back on topic, I’m sending my future children to Catholic school so they will have Christmas and Easter parties, none of this islam indoc.

Minnie Mouse on September 12, 2007 at 5:11 pm

I am certainly not Mr. Holy Roller. I am a Christmas and Easter Catholic for the most part. However, I acknowledge and am thankful for the Judeo-Christian roots of this nation. This nation is a product of Christian Englightenment principles. These principles helped lay the framework for Anglo-American culture, the world’s superior culture in terms of innovation, human achievement, and human living standards.
While I am very much a science first type, and resent as well as mock the proseltyzing of the Creationist, 6,000 year old earth crowd; I certainly do not view them as a threat. Even the most extreme of notable Christian fundamentalists (Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jimmy Swaggart) have never openly incited violence against those they condemn, nor urged a theocratic overthrow of our government as the Islamic fundamentalists have. The concept of holy war in current world affairs is purely Islamic. Jews do not fight a holy war – they fight a defensive war of self preservation which they have every right to engage in (with the exception of lone wolf flakes like Irv Rubin and the JDL). I just wish they would realize this, instead of giving into internaitonal pressure and the Arab UN voting block when responding to Islamic aggression. Christians do not fight a holy war. They either fight wars of self preservation (against Muslims and Communists) and peacefully evangelize nonbelievers, the latter of which is a minor annoyance and certainly beats having a dull blade to your neck (again, exceptions include The Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda, and other fringe groups). Aggressive Jihad, whether pursued peacefully (through demographics/birth rates, legal strategies) or through violence/terrorism to bring the world under Islamic domination is supported by a majority (statistically provable) or a supermajority (my own opinion) of worldwide Muslims.
Furthermore, as one of the posters above mentioned, secular humanism and political correctness have just as serious proclivities towards fundamentalism as Christian or Jewish fundamentalism. The ACLU, People for the American Way, etc. are at least as extreme in their quest to purge any sign of our Judeo Christian heritage from our society against the majority’s will as the Christian Coalition, et al. are in their quest to put Evangelical Christian influenced laws on the books against the majority’s will. To me, Markos Moulitas, Susan Estrich, etc. sound just as extreme, hateful, and one sided as Fred Phelps or Pat Robertson.
I, like many others, believe in a balance. I believe in freedom of religion, not from religion. This business of banning Christmas trees and forcing PC speak upon society (“Happy Holidays,” “Holiday Plays”, and other assorted nonsense) has to stop. What makes society strong is expression and dialogue amongst our belief systems. This is what our forefathers intended. However, today’s radical liberal, activist judges, politicians, and interest groups would rather hijack the socio-policy agenda to create a right to not be offended.
Hogwash I say.

JasonBourne81 on September 12, 2007 at 5:13 pm

What a bunch of ignoramuses! The Founders did not intend America to be a Christian nation or else that would had explicitly stated “WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!” Democracy certainly isn’t a Judeo-Christian principle, so name ONE Judeo-Christian principle enshrined in the Constitution.
And as proof that the Founders did not intend America to be a Christian nation here’s a part of the Treaty of Tripoli signed by the US government:
Treaty of Tripoli(4 November, 1796). In Article 11, it states:
“As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; AS IT HAS IN ITSELF NO CHARACTER OF ENMITY AGAINST THE LAWS, RELIGION, OR TRANQUILLITY, OF MUSSELMEN [i.e. MUSLIMS]; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

Norman Blitzer on September 12, 2007 at 6:08 pm

Thank you for taking a stand..I too see the danger from Islam…I also see it’s growth..your way..we can slow it…we need to stand as one and say no more.

storagemanager on September 12, 2007 at 6:53 pm

Just out of curiosity, does an American Catholic’s loyalty belong to the U.S. or the Pope? And is it possible to go against the infallibility of the Pope and still be a Catholic?

LoveAManInAUniform on September 12, 2007 at 7:14 pm

Why do you assume all Christians are Catholic?…Catholic’s are Christians…but not all are Catholic…kinda like saying all Arabs are Muslim…and that is not the case.

storagemanager on September 12, 2007 at 7:19 pm

Norman Blitzer,
You have your beliefs. If you are interested, you should listen to Bob Dutko’s Top Ten Proofs of America’s Christian Heritage.
http://www.toptenproofs.com or at WMUZ 103.5 Google it.
JasoneBourne81,
If you don’t believ in creationism, that is your business, but why ‘Mock’ those that do?
All of you,
I invite you to listen to all of Bob Dutko’s Top Ten Proofs CDs. They are fantastic.

True American on September 12, 2007 at 7:34 pm

ëAnd proclaim liberty throughout the land
unto all the inhabitants thereof.í
-the inscription on the Liberty Bell
from the Jewish Bible,
third book of the Five Books of Moses,
(Lev.XXV,10).
While there may be some debate about whether our founding fathers meant to establish a Christian nation, there is little doubt that they intended to establish one respectful of G-d and the Ten Commandments. A fact clearly lost on some.

ICEland on September 12, 2007 at 8:33 pm

Ôø?The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of ChristianityÔø?I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.Ôø?
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
One can find libraries replete with such quotes from the men who founded this nation. Blitzer–if you cared to check it out, you would find out that for every quote you can cite like the one you do (above)–there are literally hundreds which say otherwise. Our fathers wanted us to not force a particular faith on anyone–but the idea that we would ban Christianity from the public squre is a recent development in history. The long-standing traditions of government and even the government buildings in DC attest to this–funny thing that no one was offended when it all began and for many, many years.
Thank G-d we have some strict constructionists back on the Supreme Court who take the Constitution literally–and do not rewrite our nation’s laws from the bench by nullifying our history as you revisionists would have us do. We have 4 of them now–we need a couple more. The “revisers” make sure very little history is taught in the public schools and secular universities today.

BB on September 12, 2007 at 9:19 pm

True American,
I mock creationism because it is merely a myth. It is akin to believing the Earth is flat, or that the rest of the Universe revolves around the Earth. It is a myth that is scientifically disprovable. Do you really think that all of nature was created in 7 days 6,000 years ago? Do you really think dinousaurs ran around with human beings?
If you do, that is fine. HOwever, those are scientifically disprovable beliefs. America is in fact behind the rest of the industrialized world in terms of math and science scores. This is one of the large reasons millions of Indians and Chinese are imported in for math/science intensive jobs. As a proud American, I resent my country’s place in the world in this way, and wish to improve it. Educating children with religious dogma that science easily disproves is not the way forward.

JasonBourne81 on September 12, 2007 at 9:49 pm

“America is in fact behind the rest of the industrialized world in terms of math and science scores”…which is due primarily to the increasingly-bizarre public school system, with its disrespect for performance standards and for knowledge itself.

photoncourier.blogspot.com on September 12, 2007 at 11:16 pm

Thomas Jefferson, knowledgeable in 5 languages, researched extensively until he found the civilizations with a government structure he deemed best suited to provide liberty and freedom for the people. He chose the structure developed by Moses to govern the Hebrews and the Anglo-Saxon structure when they ruled England. Both of these held fast to a belief in a Creator and power to the people.
The first amendment creates a wall between the Federal government and religion. The founders encouraged the state governments to foster religion, but not to single out any one religion.
While this country was founded on freedom of religion, and not freedom from religion, it left the choice up to the individual.
Say what you want. This is the truth, completely factual, and you cannot change it.
So choose- be an atheist, an agnostic, or a believer. All are welcome.
Oh yes, whatever you do, whatever you believe, do not tread on my liberties and freedoms.

Happiness Pursuer on September 12, 2007 at 11:44 pm

JasonBourne81,
Thank you for your answer. Given your reasons about why you believe in evolution, why mock people who believe different than you? Why verbalize your mocking? What good does it do? Does it make you feel better about yourself? Does it make you feel accepted in society? Does it let people know your not in the minority on an issue that you believe is a myth or that the mainstream believe are a bunch of weirdos? I am not attempting to mock or belittle, these are plausible answers that I thought of when I wondered why you mocked people who believe in creationism.
Personally, I don’t think that America cannot move forward mathematically or scientifically with a minority of it’s population believing in creationism. Creationism is not a popular thought amongst our congressional minds (state or federal)or for that matter, in any branch of our government, in our mainstream educational system, or in the mainstream media.
My belief is that Hollywood, the mainstream media, and others, have attempted to force the dumbing down of Americans, attempted to belittle or destroy all of our heroes (besides sports heroes that make a whole ton of money), and destroy Christianity. I think they have done all of this in an effort to make it appear that everyone is exactly the same, all at the same moral, ethical, educational, social, and spiritual level with nothing to aspire to except making money and doing whatever they want.
As a discussion, if scientists date fossils by where they find them in the geologic layers, and they date the geologic layers by how old the fossils are that are found in them, how can anything be dated correctly? Research carbon dating before you answer that.
BTW: Yes I believe it as I believe in the bible and I believe in Jesus Christ as our way to heaven.

True American on September 13, 2007 at 7:15 am

True,
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the evolution/creationism argument. At least we won’t behead one another with a dull blade. However, I do maintain my position. The status quo should be in place – kids in PUBLIC schools should be taught evolution, as it is the most provable scientific answer to where we came from. Parents who have a fundamental disagreement with this can send their children to Christian schools or home school them – an option many of them take.
As to your comments on Hollywierd, it is dead on. It has been one of the leading forces in society to attempting to supplant absolute morals, which have been a positive influence in America, to the far inferior, secular humanist, moral relativist, hedonic mindset that plagues America today. This mindset creates amoral and narcissistic people, and is dangerous for the future of our nation. Look to Europe as an example of this in progress with its tons of out of wedlock births, etc.

JasonBourne81 on September 13, 2007 at 10:50 am

Since no one answered my question, I’m going to assume that Catholics, as opposed to the rest of us Christians, take their orders from the Pope.

LoveAManInAUniform on September 13, 2007 at 12:03 pm

Love,
That is actually a valid question. This was a major reason there was serious prejudice against, in particular, Irish immigrants (I’m Irish American). The Irish were the first wave of Catholic immigrants, and as America was a Protestant country at that time, many quesitoned the new immigrants’ collective loyalty in much of the same way Muslim loyalty is questioned today. Furthermore, it was not until Vatican II that Church Dogma accepted a division between church and state, another major sore point.
However, as a result of the pressure from the establishment in the US at the time, as well as the desire of the Irish and following Catholic immigrant groups (Italians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, South Germans, Croatians, Hungarians, etc.) to belong and be a part of American society; the informal formation of the American Catholic church began. This was referenced above by a poster whose child is in Catholic school. Pope Leo in the 1890s blasted this “Americanism” in one of his Papal encyclicles, and really wanted to bring American Catholics to heel under the dominion of the church. However, as American Catholics saw the value of America, the best country in the world, as paramount to the value of being Catholic, this was not achieved.
In summation, to answer your quesiton, no – American Catholics are not loyal to the Pope above their country. That is a blatant falsehood.

JasonBourne81 on September 13, 2007 at 12:12 pm

Actually, it was’t/isn’t a matter of the Founders intending a “Christian” nation – rather, they intended a NATION WHERE PEOPLE COULD BE FREE TO CHOOSE THEIR BELIEFS!
Yes, the main Founders were slaveholders, but this was the starting point of THE GREAT EXPERIMENT!
.The one and only time in the official “history” of civilization that this has ever been done. I can’t help standing up and reminding others.
And we went on from there to evolve – in allowing, nay, acknowleging the Rights of All Living Beings…even going the point now of The Rights of Animals…and even Nature. (Of which we are a part, as well as being part of the Universe).
THAT’S E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N.
I am some moved in my Soul!

allat on September 13, 2007 at 2:11 pm

JasonBourne81,
Amen to that brother! No beheadings here, and hopefully none to come.
I agree, we need to look at Europe to see our possible future problems. ‘We’ as America, are relatively young compared to other countries. Hopefully we can learn from other’s mistakes, but I personally, don’t have much hope of that.
Take care, God bless, and stay safe!

True American on September 13, 2007 at 5:25 pm

Once again Wolfie shows up. Since the word G_d is not printed in 72 point letters on the front of the Constitution, he figures he will use it for a debating point. I would simply point to the first ten amendments. It lists the rights of men not governments. Wolfie would not allow any religion except his own, atheism, yes it is a religion! It pushes the survival of the fittest. Hitler believed in it. Stalin believed in it. Mao believed in it. Millions of people died. People who believe in Atheism do so because they believe they are superior to every one else. Since there is no G_d, they are G_d. No need for limits on their power. The Constitution lists division of powers and limits on power, that come from the idea that Adam was not perfect and those who followed him were not perfect, an idea shared by Jews and Christians. The French revolution rejected all religious ideas and brought with it no restrain on killing. The Atheists ran wild. The world saw years of warfare. The Soviet revolution brought on a replay. No one in their right mind wants to live in Wolfie’s world.

Burt on September 13, 2007 at 6:24 pm

Burt regurgitated:
[It lists the rights of men not governments.]
Blah, blah, blah… That has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re talking about here. As for the rest of your utter bullshit, read below:
First Amendment-Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
VS.
The First Commandment- Exodus 20 (King James Version):
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
———————————————-
To the brain that’s not damaged by Judeo-Christian sewage, it’s pretty obvious that the most important Amendment directly contradicts the most important Commandment. So again, I challenge any of you zealots to name one, just freakin’ one Judeo-Christian value enshrined in the Constitution.
And another thing- The mostly Northern Founding Fathers were unable to free American slaves because the Southerners had the Bible engraved into their brains that slaves were to obey their masters. Because the South was so dedicated to Judeo-Christian principles, African-Americans would be enslaved for another 80(give or take)years! (and of course, it took a bloody civil war to free them!!!)
Thomas Jefferson, of course, knew better when he said:
“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.”
-Notes on Virginia, 1782
and
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
If the Founding Fathers made America a ‘Christian Nation’ the country would have eventually destroyed itself in the same manner that Christian Europe fell apart thanks to its offspring, Nazism. It was Hitler’s love for Christ and the teachings of Christianity which led this madman and European Christians to persecute and slaughter the Jews. Remember it was Jesus who called the Jews ‘children of Satan’.

Norman Blitzer on September 14, 2007 at 12:48 am

Strange Thomas Jefferson went to church every week in the Capital building; of course, the ACLU wasn’t founded until the 20th century. Jefferson never became a “Christian”, but he did feel the morals taught by Christ was important to the founding of a new country. Had he been anti-Christian he simply would not have fit in. Of the 220 men who were considered founding fathers, over 50 were pastors. At the time of the first census over 98% of all Americans considered themselves Christians, the rest were Jews. Any one who has interest in the ACLU, check the writings of Roger Nash Baldwin founder of the ACLU. It will explain much.

Burt on September 14, 2007 at 11:10 am

Christians should ponder the millions of peopleÔø?victims of crusades, inquisitions, colonial conquests, the slave trade, political terror, and genocideÔø?who have been tortured and killed in Christ’s name.

Jovent on September 14, 2007 at 3:37 pm

Jovent-
I think you hit the nail right on the head. Christians should ponder past sins and then realize that it doesn’t have squat relevance to future sins. That is entirely the point in which you brought up, you are living in the past with little future and most of us are here in present trying to live with a future. You are welcome to help yourself to your past which is little better than your present.

code7 on September 15, 2007 at 12:28 am

KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. – Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. – Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
….. martyrs…. Enter heaven – Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. – 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. – Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. – Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. – 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. – 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme – 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. – 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5

RODNEYnDC on September 15, 2007 at 2:10 pm

“Our Founding Fathers separated church from state, but they wisely did not separate God from state; they acknowledged God as the source of our rights, and, in fact, they were careful to place Biblical morality directly into our founding documents and laws, and into our values and culture precisely to help prevent a future of totalitarian or tyrannical rule in America. The combination of keeping Judeo-Christian religious morality in the state, as opposed to the church it’s self; and, additionally, setting up our laws based on reason and common sense has contributed to the American Character, and to what is known as “American Exceptionalism.”
Our Founding Fathers were religious in a new way, the Judeo-Christian way, and they were the liberals of their day by deducing that our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government; but they were conservative to Biblical morality. There was and still is a connection between God and Liberty; He is the author of it. It is ironic that American Conservatives are now the champion of this our most liberal founding principle; and also an irony that most American Conservatives are wholly unaware of their connection with the liberal founding ideas of this great republic. It is also an irony that many American Liberals have turned a blind eye to the required connection between God and Liberty. As Thomas Jefferson and John Adams noted, as you will see below, Liberty cannot survive among men without its Divine connection.”
from The Judeo-Christian Values of America
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/09/the_judeochristian_values_of_a.html

WillPower on September 15, 2007 at 6:58 pm