hmmm… conflated you (who is white) with karen hunter (who is not white). sorry, your venom sounds the same… and regardless, my point still stands.

ready5 on February 8, 2007 at 1:47 pm

To all you atheist “intellectuals” represented here:first,admit you’re just a bunch of real-life caricatures best represented as pie targets for ‘The Three Stooges’,second-atheism died-at the latest in 1964 when John Coltrane dedicated his album ‘A Love Supreme’ to God(it should’ve finally died by the end of the twentieth century as it was responsible for the worst atrocities of the 20th century-I guess some of you fools will argue that Hitler used “God” in speeches);finally,maybe you can move somewhere where there are Sylvan Learning Centers that teach Remedial Reading 101-America’s founders believed in the values stemming from The Bible-dat means Old Testament and New Testament.

jaywilton on February 8, 2007 at 2:10 pm

Congratulations Debbie, you’ve inspired a new commandment straight from God: http://www.blogofthegods.com/2007/02/08/debbie-schlussel-inspires-new-commandment-from-god/

Troutnut on February 8, 2007 at 2:26 pm

Since I seem to be the “atheist blogger” (oh, excuse me…I meant “higher power”) who sent all my godless minions to perturb you, I thought I’d mention that I have responded to your comments here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/02/debbie_schlussel_might_become.php
I really don’t think it’s hypocritical or inconsistent for people to believe in me — I’ve got a birth certificate and a driver’s license and everything.

PZ Myers on February 8, 2007 at 3:01 pm

Quotes from Dogma (Kevin Smith)
Rufus the 13th Black Apostle played by Chris Rock
RUFUS talking about Jesus:
He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets
carried out in His name – wars, bigotry, but especially the factioning of
all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always,
built a belief structure on it.
BETHANY:Having beliefs isn’t good?
RUFUS:
I think it’s better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a
belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from
idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit
growth; new ideas can’t generate. Life becomes stagnant.

one1time on February 8, 2007 at 3:22 pm

I REREAD your post Debbie, and it is excellent.
HOW ANYONE could accuse you of being an Ann Coulter knock-offÖis simply, plainly, wrong.
They just havenít read your posts and have an incredible ability to gloss over glaring distinctions. You bring a personal, AND a moderately, but distinctly, Jewish flavour to each of your posts.
Debbie, wouldnít it be great to rebuild America, indeed North America, with Judeo-Christian values?
IT WOULD be nice if we could put all atheists in some special ìroped offî corner of globe, while Catholics, other Christians, and Jews rebuilt North America into a modern Camelot!
Hey, donít poke me just yetÖIím enjoying this dream!!
ReturningÖÖI stand in disbelieve at the incredible hatred, insults and personal attacks some of these atheists have shamelessly leveled against you.
May calamity enter their household~
In a general response to your postÖEUROPE is like one giant personification of JUDAS ISCARIOTÖexcept worse.
JUDAS sold his faith for petty change.
Europeans threw their faith away for NOTHING.
Let ISLAM overtake them, and let us hope that is the judgment of God for them. Let Islam bring the chaos into their lives that Islam distributes EVERYWHERE and that Europe has now earned.
HISTORICALLYÖEurope has been ìthereî before.
WHILE JESUS rejected the gift (the temptation of large-scale control) by the ruler of ìthis worldîÖit seems ATHEISTS and MUSLIMS would clearly jump at that offerÖanythingÖANYTHINGÖ to throw off that Judeo-Christian yoke!
So Debbie you are quite right. ISLAM and ATHEISM are ìbrothersî in disbelief.
BOTH are UNINSPIRED religions, purely man-made, one actually delusional, the other without any religious stirrings at all. BUT THEY are BOTH presently evolving toward collaborationÖ
And to the earlier ìstatistical geniusî, societal momentum is very real and very hard to accurately track~
ATHEISTS think they have solid arguments against the Catholic Faith but really they were just too self-satisfied to ìseek and findî. There are many layers to the Holy Scriptures and for Jesus to link together, explain and confound all these texts with so original a ìtakeî and for him not be ìsomethingî more as He declaredÖrequires MORE FAITH than I have, brother Atheist!
So ATHEISTS enjoy THIS LIFEÖÖitís all you have~
FOR YOU OTHERSÖJesus says ìtake up your crossîÖÖif you wantÖyou donít have toÖonly if you actually wantÖ
Something more.

The Canadien on February 8, 2007 at 3:25 pm

Debbie, Aside from the extreme showing of intolerance that you exhibit, I am a bit offended at the way you as a Jewish woman defend the rights of Christians over the rights of atheists. As others have mentioned, prayer was not excluded from schools, only school (ie. government) imposed prayer. This school imposed prayer offended, not only atheists, but many non-Christians as well. I don’t know about you, but having been brought up in a Jewish family, I felt quite uneasy, as a child, having to be part of school sponsored, “christian prayers”. As an adult, I can emotionally separate myself from such an exclusionary activity, but as a child it made me quite uncomfortable. Your attitude, as a Jewish woman, seems to me not only intolerant, but it sounds like you have given yourself over to what you call a “christian country”. I expect many Christians to voice this opinion (although wrongly), but I am surprised to hear a woman declare herself a Jew and and call this a “christian country” in the same breath. You must either feel very alienated as a Jew in a “christian country”, or you must be very confused. I put the phrase “christian country” in quotes because as Thomas Jefferson has said many times “We are not a christian Country”. We are a free country where everyone is entitled to their own beliefs (even to believe in the absence of a higher power), where just coincidentally, the majority of the people are christian. Your intolerance makes you neither a good Jew nor a good christian.

IntelligentCommenter on February 8, 2007 at 3:27 pm

PREVIOUSLY, I meant to say:
“IT WOULD be nice if we could put all atheists in some special ìroped offî corner of THE globe, while Catholics, other Christians, and Jews rebuilt North America into a modern Camelot!”

The Canadien on February 8, 2007 at 3:35 pm

@ The Canadien
You are missing the Sarcasm quotes around your post.

one1time on February 8, 2007 at 4:03 pm

Oh, lil’ Debbie. If an atheist like me who has never launched a lawsuit or interrupted a prayer happens to mutter something derogatory about that stupid panel but doesn’t send any e-mail around for you to see it, is she still a “Muslim?” News to me. Well, allahu akhbar, sistah.
This “There’s no freedom from religion” ‘tude is, like, so two cupcakes ago! Sure, you may say that the choice of diets doesn’t give one freedom from dieting, but call out the National Guard honey, because I’ve already scarfed all your chocolate.
And this atheist chick can eat anything she wants and not gain weight.
That’s a threat, BTW. 😉

Kristine on February 8, 2007 at 4:08 pm

“Conversely, there is absolutely no proof that God does NOT exist. Hence, this is a matter of belief.”
“…Extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence. After thousands of years and thousands of gods, there hasn’t been proof of one of them. And no, holy texts do not count as proof of anything other than the human tendency to believe whatever is placed in front of them.”
VeraV,
There is no way to prove or disprove God’s existence, although both Aquinas and Leibniz made logical cases FOR God’s existence.
The denial of God’s existence is just as much an ‘extraordinary claim’ as the assertion of God’s existence. Over three billion people believe in a monotheistic god. How many atheists are there in the world? Historically, God’s existence was the prevalent belief. Thus, it is the denial of God’s existence that is ‘extraordinary’. Hence, it requires evidence of which you have none.
You are entitled to your belief and I am entitled to mine.
By the way, I was an atheist when I was in college. I was arrogant enough to believe that humanity was the highest form of existence and the God was a silly superstition. Experience has provided me with the wisdom to see my error of false pride. I will pray that you and all your atheist comrades receive the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and come to the Light.

WillPower on February 8, 2007 at 7:46 pm

I don’t know that you mean to be funny, but your appearance on Paula Zahn Now made me laugh. Um, yeah, I’m just as upset if my daughter’s teachers lead her in Muslim prayers as Christian ones. Sure, most of her classmates are Christian, but I expect their parents to teach them to pray, not their teachers. My daughter’s teacher even has a picture of Jesus on her desk, and I’m OK with that, as long as she does not belittle my daughter in any way- including trying to teach her religion. ANY religion! That is my job. And I do teach her about religions and their place in history and psychology.
But the purpose of my entry was to let you know that you made my 10 year old daughter cry and ask, “Why do they hate us so much?” Perhaps you’ve forgotten that we are real people with real feelings, even though we are in the minority. So consider this a gentle reminder….
Susan

QuiltHugger on February 8, 2007 at 8:25 pm

“There is no way to prove or disprove God’s existence,”
Right, and I have not said otherwise. What I did say, in case you didn’t take the time to read it, was that to say “prove me it’s not so” is the goofies of logical fallacies.
The deeper point was that as there is no evidence either way, to claim that you *know* god to exist is foolish. Atheists, in my experience, do not say “I *know* god does not exist”. Rather they say “I have seen no evidence that suggests god does exist”. A subtle difference, but a difference.
“The denial of God’s existence is just as much an ‘extraordinary claim’ as the assertion of God’s existence.”
No, it’s simply the most logical position to take given the incredible lack of evidence. I don’t believe in the existence of unicorns either. Or the Easter Bunny. Such are gods.
“Over three billion people believe in a monotheistic god.”
Millions of people watch American Idol. Millions of people hack of the foreskins of their sons for no apparent reason. Millions of people jump out of airplanes. What’s your point? Plenty of people do plenty of silly things. This is the Bandwagon logical fallacy.
“How many atheists are there in the world?”
Ah, I see. So the majority is right. So I suppose if billions of people start to believe that the world is in fact flat, they are right? DO you see the problem yet?
“Historically, God’s existence was the prevalent belief.”
And I suppose if all your friends jumped off a bridge, you’d jump too. Argumentum ad antiquitatem logical fallacy.
” Thus, it is the denial of God’s existence that is ‘extraordinary’.”
Actually, I agree. Since the religious are ardent about brainwashing their young very early, being able to break that programming is a bit extraordinary. Thanks.
“Hence, it requires evidence of which you have none.”
I see. So, *I* require evidence that something is *not* so. (this, btw, is the argumentum ad ignorantiam logical fallacy). Okay. I’ll try again to illustrate how silly this suggestion is. I require evidence that you are not, in fact, an alien. Like Alf, or E.T. or Mr. Spock. If you don’t prove it, than I am forced to believe that you are.
(see how silly that “prove to me it isn’t so” thing is?)
“You are entitled to your belief and I am entitled to mine.”
Agreed.
“By the way, I was an atheist when I was in college. I was arrogant enough to believe that humanity was the highest form of existence and the God was a silly superstition. Experience has provided me with the wisdom to see my error of false pride. I will pray that you and all your atheist comrades receive the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and come to the Light.”
Oh good, the Anecdotal evidence logical fallacy (and about three otheres in this paragraph alone, but I’m getting tired with pointing them out).
First, cupcake, antedotes about you as a silly college student are irrelevent, and tremendously pointless. Partly because nothing of what you say can be verified, and partly because I’ve heard that same schtick from theists before. Though, I do wish that if you had such a need to insult me, you’d do it up front instead of couching it in unverifable nonsense.
Second, you don’t know how old I am, but I’m glad that your arrogance takes precendence over your compulsion to evangelize.
Third, do not assume that I have no experiences that have made me question, or that I am uneducated about religion. I’ve been through the brainwashing nonsense and reject it.
Fourth, please spare me the embarassing “I’ll pray for you” display. I don’t understand why you think talking to yourself is going to change anything. However, I assure you when I wake up tomorrow, and next month, and next year still an atheist, we can chalk that up to more proof that god is either a) nonexistent of b) painfully incompetent.
Hope you find you way out of the rabbit hole and come to reason. (see how condesceding that is! for shame!)

Vera Venom on February 8, 2007 at 9:36 pm

The denial of God’s existence is just as much an ‘extraordinary claim’ as the assertion of God’s existence. Over three billion people believe in a monotheistic god. How many atheists are there in the world? Historically, God’s existence was the prevalent belief. Thus, it is the denial of God’s existence that is ‘extraordinary’. Hence, it requires evidence of which you have none.
*******************************
It was a prevelant belief that the sun revolved around the earth along with the rest of the universe.
Did that make it correct?
Which God did our ancestors pre-Abraham (if he ever existed) believe in?
If I say that an invisible man lives under my bed, do you believe it, no matter how convinced I am?
Isn’t it up to me to prove this man exists, or is it up to you to prove he doesn’t exist?
If you want to say there is a God, it is up to you to prove it, not for me to disprove.
Atheism is a logical conclusion based on the analysis of evidence we have (scientific evidence that debunks a literal bible for instance) and total lack of evidence that anything supernatural.
Every Atheist I know is open minded. Show us evidence and our positions can change.

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew on February 8, 2007 at 9:56 pm

One more thing. There is evidence that MAN makes up Gods. All Gods can’t be right. Is Thor the right God?, the Sun?, the Hebrew God, where Jesus was just another guy? The Christian God? The Muslim God, where Mohammed was a prophet?, Jim Jones God?, Joe Smith’s God?, how about the Buddhist God?, or Hubbard’s God? The Jehovah Witness God? The Zoroastrian God? There are over 3000 Gods.
It is logical that they all can’t be right. And it is logical that everyone but one or all of them have their story right. Almost certainly, all of them are made up since there is no evidence that God has ever existed. But lots of evidence that man continues to make up Gods.

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew on February 8, 2007 at 10:04 pm

VV & BEAJ,
Your premise is that God does not exist and you demand proof of his existence. My premise is that God does exist and I ask for your proof that he does not. Demanding that I accept your premise is a sophist trick and weak argument. Neither of us can disprove the other’s premise. Your anecdotal evidence is just as self-referential as mine.
I am NOT trying to get you to change your beliefs. I am simply pointing out that there is another perspective which is as internally consistent as yours. You are stating your belief as The Truth and disparaging people who disagree. How is that different from the ‘fundamentalists’ you seem to disdain?
Since I am free to practice my religious beliefs, I will choose to pray for you.

WillPower on February 8, 2007 at 10:24 pm

If my premise was the Tooth Fairy exists, and it was your premise you have no evidence that the Tooth Fairy exists, who is the onus on?
My contention is the Tooth Fairy, like any God you say you believe in is the same. There is no proof either exists. If one says the Tooth Fairy exists or God exists it is up to the person stating it, to prove it.
I say there is no evidence that God exists. I don’t have to prove anything with that statement. You have to show me evidence to prove me wrong.
Don’t worry, you can’t change my mind, but I might change yours, or at least I’ll get you thinking more rationally.

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew on February 8, 2007 at 11:38 pm

“Your premise is that God does not exist and you demand proof of his existence”
No, my premise by the way, is that no evidence for God exists just like no evidence for the Tooth Fairy exists. Why should I even consider the Tooth Fairy or God exists when I also believe both are man made myths?

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew on February 8, 2007 at 11:44 pm

i am an atheist too and i dont think there is a god or supreme being or any other kind of “higher power” whatsoever. however i will not try to limit or prohibit your right to believe what you want to believe so why would you try to do that to us? why cant people just live and let live and leave people the hell alone to do what they want to with their own beliefs. i am in no way gonna even entertain the notion of becoming a muslim let alone a radicalised one. to think that is just insanity at best. doesnt christain faith preach tolerance and “turn the other cheek” and all that? why cant you accept that there are people on this earth that may not belive what you do or maybe dont believe in anything at all? where is it written that every human HAS to believe in a higher power or supreme being or God of any kind at all.
kinda ironic that a religion that has a COMMANDMENT stating “Thou shalt not KILL” is responsible for a great many wars and millions of deaths over the centuries.

John S on February 8, 2007 at 11:58 pm

There are definitely a lot of misconceptions about atheism out there. Frankly, it’s frightening to be in the moral minority. I dare not reveal my lack of “faith” in the workplace. It is the “ugly secret” that I keep tucked away at parties.
I believe that morality is derived from within. We are all born human beings with a sense of right and wrong, and a heartfelt appreciation for the idiosyncrasies of our fellow man.
Somewhere along the way, our vision of social harmony is distorted by aspects of human nature that we still have not come to fully understand.
And until we have reached that understanding, I don’t feel there is any one system of beliefs that we should all prescribe to.
Do I think that man is the highest form of life? No, I do not. This is because I do not see life on scale of what is higher or lesser. If empathy were not a byproduct of equity, then what would it be?
Does my atheism make me weak? Is having a sense of morality without the aid of fearing an ultimate retribution a sign of weakness?
As one member of the CNN forum said it, “The atheist will stand out in a crowd.”
Perhaps theists see themselves as “fitting in”?

davensocal on February 9, 2007 at 3:19 am

Hello, Debbie.
I came across your video, and I must say that you’re coming off as quite closed-minded, and childish!
My aunt says people like you, are the reason christianity is looked down upon by other religions, or this case (non-religions), and she is a devout christian.
Also, Atheism =/= Nihilism.
Atheists choose not to partake in religion, but they do not ‘believe in nothing’.
And that certainly doesn’t make them another religion! That’s just ridiculous.
No one is asking you to change your religion, your country is all about freedom of choice!
The roots of Judeo-Christianity, lie in the middle east.
If you really want to claim a country was founded on christianity, you may want to move there.
But even then, the land already existed when Christianity was spread.
Are you from the ‘Holy Land’?
No, I don’t think so. If you have ancestors from there, then it’s more plausible.
I think that faith is something that should be adhered to one’s ancestry.
IN EVERY RELIGION there are those that believe they are the one true religion, and all others are false.
I believe that any religion is true for those who are a within it.
All of those people christ ‘taught’, in the bible, were previously a part of Judeism, or chose not to involve themselves with another religion.
Christianity isn’t really a valid religion in my mind, the way it’s constantly spread to people who already withhold their own religions, or none at all, as if they were in the wrong for not being christian.
Religion is something meant for the people who created it.
If you are a part of the founding nation of the religion, you are part of the religion.
Simple as that.
For example, catholicism is widespread in South America, but none of them are truely a part of it, unless they have judeo-christian ancestry.
Atheists are a part of their ancestry, and a simple choice cannot erase that.
In all, I believe in the right to choices, which you seem to be so against, and I will add that christianity today, is full of non-christian followers, who are bound to other religions, that lie in their blood.
They may choose to follow christianity, but it does not apply.
Atheists may choose not to acknowledge their true religions, but it is there, they cannot erase history.
So in the end, people should be allowed to make whatever choice they desire.
Don’t act like a child, and tell them they are wrong, just because they shunned your religion, because in the end, the vast majority of christians did the same thing to their blood religion.
And judging by your last name, you come from germanic origins, and would share the same ancesteral religion/ideals as I would.
I am neither Christian, nor Atheist.
I am Pagan/Nationalist.
I do not live in the United States, nor do I really care for it.
I may also add, that I am 17 as of today.
If you or anyone wish to discuss this further with me, e-mail me at: foodlibraries@hotmail.com

Frosset Helvete on February 9, 2007 at 3:23 am

Is this the futiure you see for America Debbie?
Aroma of Jesus [VIDEO]
Evangelical Pentagon video to be investigated.
Many are up in arms about the Christian Embassy’s corporate promo Pentagon Christ-tacular (video right), including the The Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which is seeking an investigation.

Mycos on February 9, 2007 at 4:06 am

my opinion is that mankind created God and religion as a way of explaining the unexplained at the time. then it evolved (theres that E word that religious people hate) into something more and got perverted to equate to morality, if youre not religious youre not moral. that is wrong to believe. everyone knwos killing is wrong, raping is wrong etc… they dont need a religion to tell them that they shouldnt kill. bible is one huge fairytale imo, a fictitious story, much like Grimm’s fairy tales.
another thing ive heard stories about religious people being all pissed off about finding out scientists say such and such artifact is millions of years old or whatever. why do you get pissed off about that do you REALLY think the earth was created 12000 years ago or something and man came along 6000 years ago just out of nowhere poof we are here? i seriously doubt that is how it happened. science explains so much more with evidence and all. i see no evidence that backs up any religion or that there ever was a god that created everything. there may have beena Jesus Christ that did in fact walk this earth but he was not the son of any god and Mary did not get pregnant without having had sex thats just biologically impossible. its all a nice story and all but completely implausible imo.

John S on February 9, 2007 at 4:15 am

oh another thing to add is that i saw a documentary a while back called Jesus Camp, scariest damn movie i have ever seen. they way these people treat their kids and brainwash them at such an early age. they had one woman homeschooling her kids cause god forbid their kids get exposed to other viewpoints and whatnot. they showed her asking them what they thought about evolution and the kids laughed and said that anyone believing that is a moron. oh but its ok to believe that some ficticious being jsut waved his hand and poof everything was here and works perfectly as it is. yeah that sounds so plausible.

John S on February 9, 2007 at 4:18 am

John S, It’s not so much I disbelieve science, or believe in the stories, or whether any of it is true, I think of religion as a facet of identity.
Which is why I dissapprove of chistianity so much.

Frosset Helvete on February 9, 2007 at 6:12 am

CHUBBY:
Re-read my first line. You eventually will come to understand truth.
Whether one believes in a ‘God’ or not is irrelevant. Whether one finds truth is what is important. The new religion is Manmade global warming hysteria….SUV’s on Mars and Venus?? Many individuals who do not believe in ‘God’ that I know, subscribe to the new religion.
Submission (read: Islam) is the problem facing all of us…not a blog/commentator.
However offended or “painful” are the thoughts/OPINION of another is your pain; “Pain is weakness leaving the body” “One cannot learn without pain” Some old ancient Greek fellow wrote that once…
This nation was founded in Judeo-Christian VALUES. Not “in” any particular religion. Just the VALUES which have allowed ALL of us to prosper to one extent or another. (Freedom is the catalyst, not FreeDumb.)
The village idiots who think the “West” is to blame, well, thanks for the Harlequins.
Demographics play an IMMENSE role in todays world…European births are going down the drain. Latin birth rates are 3:1 to white Caucasians, Middle Eastern Caucasians, in particular those of Submissive faith, have a birth rate approaching 6:1 to that of the traditional “Westerner.” Don’t “believe” me, I am not your ‘God’, or anyone else…just facts.
Ya know, I have yet to see HALF as much pissin’ and moanin’ about ol’ the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran (Persian for Aryan.) comments on his desire to overtly destroy (Nuke) the entire “West”… hmmm. Who is a greater threat (real and credible mind you)…David Koresh or a Islamic Suicide-Bomber? What’s a greater threat to the “West”…the …under God….” or rising abortion rates? Hmmm. Being offended by anothers OPINION , or a Rosary?
There are two types of people…those who can’t, and those who will not.
If you “can’t” understand that is ok…keep reading books printed, for the vast majority, before ’93, you’ll catch on.
Or are you the “will not” persuasion? If that is the case, well YOU are contributing to the assault on the “West”, and thus a contributor to your own “death”.
I heard something the other day, and I find it simply incredible:
“Would you still hate what you see if you couldn’t see what you hate?”
If so, start learning Arabic…af is one.

SickBoy on February 9, 2007 at 6:45 am

“Your premise is that God does not exist and you demand proof of his existence.”
Where have I demanded any evidence? The only thing I have ever said is that there isn’t any.
” My premise is that God does exist and I ask for your proof that he does not.”
Which is a logical fallacy. Not proper debate. Not even worth all the time we’ve spent on it already. But I do need to note the hilarity of your claiming that others have offered “logical” arguments for god’s existence, and yet have clearly no idea what constitutes a logical argument.
“Demanding that I accept your premise is a sophist trick and weak argument. ”
Where did I demand you accept my premise? All I have done is point out the fatal errors in yours. I have not said you must agree with me. IN fact I have several times said exactly the opposite. Do try to remain honest.
Logical fallacies – which is all you have presented – are incorrect arguments. Therefore it is entirely correct to expose them for the nonsense that they are. That you are unable to accept that your arguments were so easily debunked it not my problem.
“Neither of us can disprove the other’s premise.”
Yours has been disproved you simply don’t know enough about debate to know that. But rest assured, this does not mean that I’m saying your failed arguments prove god doesn’t exist. Of course not. Your failed arguments do make a strong case for labeling faith are illogical. Though I’m sure everyone knows that already.
“Your anecdotal evidence is just as self-referential as mine.”
What anecdotal evidence?
“I am NOT trying to get you to change your beliefs.”
Neither am I trying to change yours. The only intention is to have theists understand why an atheist doesn’t believe in their gods. I have no interest in changing your mind. To repeat myself: I don’t care what nonsense you want to believe in, insofar as you do not attempt to legislate it.
” I am simply pointing out that there is another perspective which is as internally consistent as yours. ”
No, you have demonstrated that the theistic perspective is logically flawed. At least as you have presented it. But, you still have ever right to believe in it.
“You are stating your belief as The Truth and disparaging people who disagree. How is that different from the ‘fundamentalists’ you seem to disdain?”
Please show me where this occurred. I have only ever said you are free to believe whatever you want, and made clear why I don’t accept it. Additionally, I have pointed out the logical fallacies that you would have us believe make a logical case for believing in god. You are now floating into the logical fallacy known as argument from populus. Meaning, you use emotionalistic language to draw attention away from your failed argument and to demonize me for not falling for it. Very lame.
“Since I am free to practice my religious beliefs, I will choose to pray for you.”
Waste your time however you like. I will continue to be an atheist. I’ve spent my time researching religion. I have made up my mind.
P.s. Since you have failed to provide me with proof that you are not an alien, then you must be one – according to your flawed logic. So, what planet do you come from?

Vera Venom on February 9, 2007 at 7:57 am

Dear Debbie,
For your information, you began this post with an error–footage of you saying disparaging and crazy things about atheists is in fact available on the internet. Just thought you should know.
Also, try to remember how cause and effect works–Muslims move to Europe, and the Islamic population rises. Conclusion? Well, yours was that atheists were converting to Islam, and that’s why the population of Muslims went up. The truth, however, is that more Muslims are moving to the area. If you want to know more about causation, feel free to email me and I’ll explain it for you.
much love,
Dom

Dom on February 9, 2007 at 11:00 am

First of all I’m neither atheist or religious and I don’t believe, or trust, in either way of thinking. I think both of them are counterintuitive for different reasons.
That’s almost exactly what Thomas Jefferson and many of the other founding fathers were all about. Using quotes of theirs that were critical of religion, Christianity in particular, has actually nothing to do with their belief or disbelief in god; they rejected dogma, not outright belief. It doesn’t even bolster atheists’ assumptions that the U.S. isn’t a Christian nation and/or founded on some principles and values that are inherent in Christianity, because the U.S. is supposed to be founded on the spirit of Christianity, if not the organized beliefs.

Jochenfuss on February 9, 2007 at 2:42 pm

Also, if atheists want to be believed when they say they have morals/values and aren’t nihilistic, etc, then some of you reeeaally need to stop telling Christians or anybody else to try to learn from someone like Dawkins. The man practically doesn’t believe we have any humanity: thoughts, wishes, beliefs…

Jochenfuss on February 9, 2007 at 2:55 pm

Ok Debbie,
Your comments seem very ignorant, one you have no logical proof that all atheists are going to be Muslim Extremists. This particular claim is an outrageous statement, Socrates is probably rolling in his grave right now. Now then, your rant that the U.S. is a Christian Nation due to percentages goes against everything the Founding Fathers ever preached. What You’re suggesting is a Tyrrany of the Majority, Which James Madison preaches in Federalist #10 as one the most despicable things we could do. You’re preaching this, and your words saying that atheists are or are going to be Muslim Extremists is only said to stir hate. Your arguments are both factually wrong and logically flawed. you create a non-sequitor when saying atheists are going to be Muslim Extremists. You should know why so many people sent you hate mail, you attacked atheists on national television, and you show your ignorance in everything you say. You’re so much like Ann Coulter, You’re both right wing tools and it’s sickening.

publius on February 9, 2007 at 3:48 pm

While Debbie’s views lean just a tad bit towards being narrow-minded, those same views are unfortunately echoed by an overwhelming majority of Americans.
And that is the reality that we atheists have to contend with in every aspect of our lives. An intuitive sense of morality just isn’t a part of popular culture, and so I can’t really blame Debbie for thinking the way that she does.
Instead, I can only hope that she and the rest of America will someday wake up and realize that the will to be a good person is not a fear/need for acceptance reflex.

davensocal on February 9, 2007 at 9:01 pm

Unlike religion…
When has atheism ever caused a war?
When has atheism ever supported genocide?
When has atheism ever led to an inquisition of any sort?
When has atheism ever supported the oppression of women?
When has atheism ever supported the murder of innocents?
When has atheism ever supported genocide?
When has atheism ever condoned slavery?
When has atheism ever supported racism?
When has atheism ever stifled individualism?
When has atheism ever led to the stagnation of society?
When has atheism ever tried to stifle the advancement of science?
When has atheism ever tried to stop the spread of knowledge?
When has atheism ever been condoned the sexual abuse of minors?
When has atheism ever supported book banning or burning?
When has atheism ever tried to dictate what you do in your bedroom?
When has atheism ever stopped the development of new medical breakthroughs that could save lives?
Why are there disproportionately fewer atheists in prison?
Why are there disproportionately more believers in prison?
Why has this always been the case?
When have atheists ever tried to place the words “In no God do we trust” on the dollar, or “under no God” in to our pledge, the way Christians injected their phrases during the Eisenhower administration?
When have atheists ever banned others from holding public office or acting as a witness in court? (such laws against atheists do exist in the US)
Why do theocracy and oppression always go hand in hand?

ChristTheRedeemer on February 9, 2007 at 10:34 pm

Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot were all ATHEISTSÖand THE HEROES of your religion.
They were also GUILTY of all of the above.
People want meaning in their lives and ATHEISM has never been able to supply that.
Just what can your religion say to a nine-year girl dying of cancer? What hope can you give her? What solace?
None.
Yeah, thatís what I thought.

The Canadien on February 9, 2007 at 11:44 pm

Wrong. You’ll notice I never made any claim that all atheists were moral. Just because those men did not believe in god, does not make them representative of atheism, let alone heroes.
To make such a claim is dishonest and no more credible than if I were to claim that Hitler, Jim Jones, and Osama Bin Laden are your heroes. I do not say this because it would be an devisive insult that would not help anything, it’s a shame you cannot adhere to a similar level of decency.
At any rate, none of the examples you claim have anything to do with atheism. Why? Because atheism itself has no such moral teachings, let alone anything to account for these men’s atrocities. There morals came from additional independent ideologies which they adopted, from which their derrived their twisted sense of morality. In the case of these three it is Communism and collectivism.
It is common to hear evil men say “I did XXX for God,” but you don’t hear anyone saying “I did it because there is no God.”
You are absolutely right that atheism is not going to provide meaning in people’s lives. Why? Because atheism is not a religion or even an alternative. It simply means one doesn’t believe in God. This conveys no more knowledge about a person than if I were to say of you, “you are not a plumber.”
The fact that you don’t believe in god isn’t going to give meaning to your life, or tell you not to covet thy neighbors wife, or tell you to become an oppressive dictator.
The atheist chooses for himself a moral code and a meaning or purpose. There are a variety of ways in which atheists do this, but the important thing is that we think about our morals and come to these decisions on our own, instead of just following ambiguous orders written in some ancient text.
The result of having to actually think about morality and actually decide a personal moral code, means that most atheists are more conscious of their moral guidelines, and more likely to follow them, as the evidence clearly shows. This is why, despite atheism having no moral guidelines of its own, atheists on the whole are found to be moral people, and among the most productive members of our society.
Again, contrast this with religion, which offers moral guidelines which are commonly ambiguous, and often outright immoral.
As for your 9 year old girl, what does your religion tell her? “Yes, there is a God out there. Yes, he has the power to help you. But he will not. Sorry kid. By the way, please repent of your 9 years of sin and accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior so you don’t go to hell.” I’m sure you can talk your way around that for your own comfort, but that doesn’t help her much. You can be the one to try to explain that to her. For my child, its not good enough.
Atheism, which is usually characterized by an adherence to reason, has a more positive effect. By freeing our minds from the shackles of religion, secular research has provided the world with new medical advancements, technologies, and discoveries which can actually help those in need. This too, religion fights at every step.

ChristTheRedeemer on February 10, 2007 at 12:56 am

All I have to say is that this Debbie lady is by far, one of the ugliest bitches I have ever seen. On top of that, she is very stupid! In addition, since she insists on making generalizations about athiests,… I will say this: she really did lower the standards for being a Jew.. seriously, for a while there, I thought they were a smart bunch of people… 🙂

GodSuperSucks on February 10, 2007 at 1:21 am

hey the canadien…we never hailed people like Stalin as our hero’s I guess you tagged them that just for convenience, maybe a Straw man fallacy perhaps? Look at People l;ike Hitler who was a catholic, or maye perhaps you want to look at your crusades… Perhaps you don’t realize the flaws in your own religion instead you make out others as heroes of one ideology to make it more conveniant, but your ignorance just prooves my point even more, furthermore you’ll see more horrors done in the name of God than in the name of Atheism, maybe you’ll want to look into the Spanish Inquisition? oh yeah but you’ll overlook that because you can’t defend such atrocities. Yoiur God caused more deaths than Atheism has so think before you speak you ignorant fool.

publius on February 10, 2007 at 2:00 am

i really hate how people equate believing in god as being moral and upstanding and if you dont believe in god youre immoral. the whole superiority complex these people have is sickening as if theyre better than people who dont believe in their god. while christains are at it why not just believe that white people are the superior race as well and men are better than women. oh wait the bible pretty much says that already doesnt it?
as for the child dying of cancer situation, there is nothing that god can do about that and believing god can help that poor girl is giving her and the parents false hope. when she dies whos fault is it then? the devils? well since god is supposed to be stronger than the devil why would he LET this poor girl die of cancer and not step in and save her? you rationalize it by saying that god had a plan for her and it was god’s will, well what kind of god would take a 9yr old girl off this planet out of the blue like that? doesnt seem like a very merciful god does it.
i think people like to believe in some higher power cause then it absolves them of responsibility for their own lives, they can be comfortable in blaming something else other than themselves. if something goes good well then it was all due to god and if something goes bad well god had a plan or maybe the devil caused it. which i refer back to the whole god is supposedly stronger than the devil pont so therefor god dropped the ball and let bad things happen.
whos fault was Katrina? god, devil, global warming? or could it just be due to some natural cycle the earth is in.
sort of off topic, how arrogant are we to believe that we can cause all this damage to the earth over just the last few decades? the earth has cycles that it goes through and maybe these few degrees of climate change over the last few years is gearing up for another phase in its evolution (oh no the dreaded E word).

John S on February 10, 2007 at 2:22 am

Quote:
“Just what can your religion say to a nine-year girl dying of cancer? What hope can you give her? What solace?”
I’m glad that you admit that your religion is but a delusional attempt to give meaning where there is none.
What do you say to that girl? ‘Well, kid, I guess Jeebus was too busy sitting on His almighty thumb to heal you or keep you from dying…’
Your “meaning of life” is: ‘we’re all ants on god’s ant farm’. Hurray!
In the end, we all decide our own values, and from that, our own meaning. You may have decided yours is to follow this or that conception of god. Mine is to live well and leave the world a little better. Perhaps both of us end up DOING the same thing, just MOTIVATED by different “purposes”.

sdanielmorgan on February 10, 2007 at 8:21 am

The Spanish Inquisition numbersÖdonít compare with the 20+ million Stalin slaughtered under his religion of AtheismÖcímon guyÖbe serious!
And what if God lets millions die HORRIBLY but rewards them forever, just beyond the ìcorridor of deathî? Really, what permanent harm has actually been done? None.
SdanielmorganÖthanks for your responding post, BUT according to your own blog you debunk Christianity.
I havenít seen any debunkingÖonly a lot of anger, frustration and confusion.
When you dialogue about religion especially ChristianityÖwell, you are WAY OUT of your league, friend!
Please just stick to chemistryÖstick to something you know aboutñ
IF you want to refute Jesus, and the claims of Jesus, and the work of Jesus, your chemistry knowledge is of no use!
You havenít really even looked at the evidence supporting Jesus.
Would you even know where to start?
Jesus Himself, the Apostles and the Church have detailed very intricate, and complex arguments, supporting all His assertions and claims and thus refuting all objections.
JESUS is either a LIAR or A LUNATIC or THE LORD. Itís that easy!
And you donít understand Sacred Scripture AT ALLÖyou donít even have a clue! Because that is the only arena you can refute from!
Besides, how can you refute something you only possess a kindergarten level knowledge of?
You can run around, wringing your hands, calling down the rabid ìdogsî of the ACLU on misspelled Ten Commandment monuments found in the public arenaÖbut what have you accomplished, really?
What you REALLY should be asking yourself is: why does the sight of anything religious seem to engender such a harsh response from me?
ìIn the end, we all decide our own values, and from that, our own meaning.î
WowÖdo I disagree with you here!
That statement isnít even logical. There is right and wrong. Always. Is a murdererís opinion and purpose as valid as mine, a law-abiding citizen?
So there you have itÖyou see the simpler moral issues but canít comprehend the value of the higher ones, the Churchís stance against abortion, or euthanasia or artificial contraception etc. Try instead to understand the Churchís teaching on these issues and so many others and attempt to learn how even this mildly imposed morality is a form of divine communication and a revelation of Godís very being.
As a man of science, being open-minded and not pre-deciding is probably a good thing.
Now if I take a cup of sugar and put it in my handsÖalongside a cup of potassium nitrate, and apply a flame to the compoundÖnot a good idea right? Kind of foolhardy. Thatís the truth right?
So if you live your life without acknowledging God, but then it turns out there really is a God, wouldnít that also kind of foolish?
How would you cover off that default?
What would happen if you repeatedly ignored the requests and expectations of your boss?
You said, ìYou may have decided yours is to follow this or that conception of god. Mine is to live well and leave the world a little better. Perhaps both of us end up DOING the same thing, just MOTIVATED by different “purposes”.î
I donít think weíll both end up doing the same thingÖyour aims are purely at a humanistic level. They serve only Man. Mine are also at a spiritual level.
YOU CAN do good works, yesÖbut they arenít part of the Redemption.
Thatís how Mother Teresa once put it so well.
HEY, you could always become a MUSLIMÖ
That’s the other perfectly FALSE religionÖif you don’t want to think for yourself~

The Canadien on February 10, 2007 at 12:34 pm

Debbie believes atheists are attacking Christianity. No – they are trying to defend themselves against it! The only reason I ‚Äì as an atheist ‚Äì would want to attack Christianity is because ‚Äúthe best defense is to mount an attack on the thing that is threatening you. I have come to the conclusion that it is a terrible affliction and a genuine human tragedy that one should believe in an entity such as god. I think this because – while in principle a nonsensical and hence harmless or innocent belief ‚Äì like the belief in the tooth fairy – it is at the same time the sickly, smelly, rotten core of centuries of savagery and senseless slaughter of millions of people in the name of such beliefs – and primarily in the competition between such beliefs. Read up on human history, and this shall be revealed: ‚ÄúReligion is the Scourge of Mankind‚Äù. It is our greatest failure as a species – the inability to think rationally for the greater good. Of course, folks will tell you that religion is typically used as an excuse to dominate, rule or otherwise exploit people. When the catholic church established the Inquisition in 1229, it was to wipe out the Cathar movement in southern France – the Languedoc region – where the movement had taken hold in opposition to the hitherto dominant roman catholic religion. The pope wouldn‚Äôt put up with the competition so he put an end to it. Earlier, he had mounted a crusade against the Cathars, and under leadership of the Abbot of Citeaux the town of B?©ziers was taken on 22 July 1209 and all its inhabitants were killed – more than 20,000 people – every man, woman and child. That this would have included many roman catholic adherents also didn‚Äôt seem to matter: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eis. – ‚ÄúKill them all, the Lord will recognise His own‚Äù.
This is only one small example of the crimes committed against humanity in the name of “eternal salvation”. “Eternal damnation” is more like it. One might claim that this kind of action has nothing to do with the religious beliefs themselves Рand that they are misused when wielded as weapons of murder and destruction. No Рit is precisely the unsubstantiated and irrational nature of these beliefs that allows them to be used in this manner. When you think you have eternity and creation on your side Рall your actions are justified! Until we shake off the dominance of these dangerous beliefs, our species will continue to be murdered for them!

Xenophanes on February 10, 2007 at 12:53 pm

Canadien, what about Hitler? you obviously avoided discussing him, i guess for convenience sake, you are missing the whole point. You said Stalin was a hero of atheism, however, you fail to realize noone calls him a hero, don’t create a straw man fallacy, which is taking my argument changing to easily blow it down, it’s a logical fallacy. Anyway, you can’t claim Stalin was a hero of atheism, in fact the idea of Leninist communism was to make communism a religion. Anyway, if you want to create that fallacy then by your logic Hitler was your epitome of a hero for christianity. This being based on YOUR logic. I don’t say Hitler was a hero for christianity cause it’s not true, furthermore Stalin and Tao are not called heros by Atheists you dub them that out of your ignorance. You should realize every Militant Atheist is only like that because Christianity attacked them so it was a response to that. We aren’t a people who are going to be your scapegoats sitting down. We are acting in self-defense. So think before you speak and if you ever want to get in a real debate stop creating straw mans get some guts and debate for real.

publius on February 10, 2007 at 2:14 pm

“That statement isnít even logical. There is right and wrong. Always. Is a murdererís opinion and purpose as valid as mine, a law-abiding citizen?”
Sorry, you misunderstood me. You and I agree that there is right and wrong and these are absolute. Nobody chooses what is good. I was saying that people choose their own moral GUIDELINES to follow in life. These guidelines may be good or bad.
I went on to say that religion offers many guidelines that are ambigious, contradictory, and outright immoral. Atheists however, have always had to consciously think about morality and discover these moral absolutes for themselves, and thus they are consistently shown follow them more.
Was that the only part of contention you had with My posts? It’s the only part you addressed. In that case I would ask that you now concede that atheism does not imply immorality, and atheists should not be treated as such.
“Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds.” – Jesus of Nazareth
“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” – Jesus of Nazareth

ChristTheRedeemer on February 10, 2007 at 4:27 pm

PubliusÖÖTHEREíS BEEN a lot of famous atheistsÖHitler included, and theyíve been utterly ruthless, ignoring the God-given and inherent dignity of man.
HITLER may not be your hero, but he CERTAINLY IS your brother in belief nevertheless. You both deny the existence of God.
ALL NAZIS were excommunicated by the German bishops in 1930.
CATHOLICS were FORBIDDEN from voting for the Nazi party in the 1932 election. ëCourse there were no elections after that. All the Lefties, atheists and other Christians must then have voted him in.
CHRISTIANITY isnít attacking anybodyÖbut we were called to expand the Kingdom. The Gospel directive is clearÖto pass over those who ìstop up their earsî.
I suggest you keep acting in self-defense. The MUSLIMS are comingÖand they wonít have the tolerance the Judeo-Christian societies have had for you.
Donít bore me with ìfailedî politicians who ìbackî ATHEISM.
SHOW me from the Bible where Jesus has erred.
Címon, Iím waiting!
JESUS is either a LIAR or a LUNATIC or THE LORD.
Obviously, you donít believe He is The Lord. So PROVE the other two.

The Canadien on February 10, 2007 at 4:37 pm

Canadien, excommunication our not, Hitler believed in creation and he believed Jesus was the saviour. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Atheists are 8-15% of the US population, yet Atheists only represent 1% of the prison population.
Who is more moral and ethical?

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew on February 10, 2007 at 4:57 pm

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in lonliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against Jewish poison… as a Christian I have also a duty to my people.” – Adolph Hitler April 12, 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922 – August 1939. Vol 1 of 2, pp. 19-20. Oxford University Press 1942).

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew on February 10, 2007 at 5:02 pm

There in no contemporary evidence Jesus ever Existed, most likely he was an invention of Paul
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/m_m_mangasarian/truth_about_jesus.htm l
http://www.luigicascioli.it/home_eng.php
http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
http://www.thegodmovie.com/
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew on February 10, 2007 at 5:10 pm

Bacon addressed your other failed claims sufficiently.
In regard to your desparate cry that “JESUS is either a LIAR or a LUNATIC or THE LORD.”
You are placing yourself into a box of your own presumptions and ignorance.
There are other many alternative ways to view Jesus. For instance…
– Many early Christians believed that Jesus was not God, but infused with his spirit at baptism.
– Other early Christians viewed Jesus as the savior from the material world who opposed the evil God of the old Testament.
– Muslims belive Jesus was a prophet of God.
– Many Buddhists believe Jesus was a Bodhisattva, an enlightened one who dedicated his life to helping his fellow men to also achieve enlightenment.
– Many Hindus believe Jesus was a yogi or guru.
– Other Hindus believe he was the reincarnation of Elisha (from the Bible)
– The Baha’i Faith views Jesus as a prophet.
– Many Deists and Atheists view Jesus as a significant moral teacher and philosopher, who’s message was corrupted and who was later elevated to Godlike status. This would include Thomas Jefferson, a Deist who actually wrote the “Jefferson Bible,” which includes only the teachings of Jesus, without the supernatural elements.

ChristTheRedeemer on February 10, 2007 at 6:00 pm

It is quite apparent that any feedback you received on your false portrayal of atheists has had any effect on your thinking after viewing your site. I won’t even lower myself to respond to the irrational comments made there. This matters little in the scheme of things though.
It has, however, brought the issue to light. Well done Debbie!! I suppose it may come as a surprise to you, given your obvious disdain for atheists, that within Christianity and your OWN religious ranks are those that are ‘closet atheists.’ Those who ‘shut up’ and allow themselves to be intimidated by the perceived threat of shunning and worse by family members, close friends, and people like yourself. The ones that go through the motions to avoid the very attitude you display. It will be interesting to see how many ‘come out’ now along with the rest of us. As STRONG (contrary to your claim) atheists, rather than taking offense to your bigotry we should perhaps be thanking you for revealing your character and those of your mindset through the provision of freedom of speech and for providing the impetus for others to step forward. By all means be “entertained and amused.” It does little other than cement our perception of you as misinformed and bigoted. If we didn’t think you were that before your response to angered atheists on your site, well now…….
I quite expect and it will come as no surprise that you may not wish to post this on your site so you can claim ‘hate mail’ but following is my response to CNN:
I took a night to ‘sleep it off’ after viewing the ‘panel’ discussion on discrimination against atheists before writing. I’m still working on it. What an outrageous display of intellectual dishonesty! Did CNN even consider the outcome of not having one atheist on board to counter the misinformation being tossed around? I have to think they must have, since no one in this line of work can really be so mindless. Or can they? This leads me to some assumptions regarding their bias against atheism. Hopefully they have some good damage control tactics in place to salvage any credibility they may have had with those who believe in freedom of speech. The only redeeming quality I find is Mr. Smith’s stand for this right, albeit, he does add to the misinformation presented in the discussion. At least that can be used to their credit. The former, not a chance.
Even the title on the background screen alone is just wrong. “Why do atheists inspire such hatred?” This is akin to saying abused wives like being hurt and bring it on themselves. Do they mean atheists like to be discriminated against, and therefore, cause their own discrimination? That they like being disowned by even family members and close friends simply because they cannot believe what they find to be unbelievable. Should atheists really be forced to keep their core identities to themselves in order to avoid societal hatred? Were the panelists at all concerned in the least for the family portrayed in the documentary? Is this a mark of their theist morality? Or do they feel they deserve to be thought of as sub human? This is the kind of thinking that has led to countless abuses of human dignity throughout history.
So Ms. Hunter is a noted journalist and educated woman. I find it difficult to believe now, that she is sincere in her views on tolerance. She emphatically states that this is “one nation made up of different people with different views from different places” as quoted from her own article appearing in the New York Daily News originally published on July 30, 2004. She goes on to say “forcing people to choose sides is ugly. Worse, urging people to hate those on the other side will be our undoing as a nation. Only through understanding those who hold different views will we get stronger” (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/khunter/). I’m guessing it’s appropriate now to say she “needs to shut up?”
These comments are notable since they demonstrate hypocrisy at it’s worst. It is apparent neither Ms. Hunter nor Ms. Schlussel have a clue what atheism is about by making such comments such as “what does an atheist believe in? Nothing right?,” let alone try to understand it. Do some research, brush up on cultural diversity, or at the least speak to an atheist before you go informing others of what you think atheists believe or don’t believe. Many of us are former Christians. How do you think we got to be atheists? Just on a whim? No, it was through a purposeful and intentional, sometimes painful, process of looking honestly and intellectually at what and why we believed as we did. We don’t live in a vacuum of nothingness. We all have beliefs in many things, just not god beliefs.
Speaking of ‘inspiring hatred’ as the aforementioned title draws attention to…….. How ironic that Ms Hunter, herself, along with Ms. Schlussel who agrees that we should ‘shut up’ have now fanned the flames of misunderstanding and growing tensions between theists and atheists. Perhaps Ms. Hunter and Ms. Schussel might like to work alongside with atheists in designing a line of “Hallmark cards for atheists” as an approach to bridging the gap they, themselves, along with CNN, have widened now. What a step backward in the progress of humanity and basic human rights.
Do NOT tell us to shut up…..just don’t!!! We will be even more vocal. Christians have had their say for centuries now. It’s simply too bad [for those who don’t want to hear] that many of us will no longer be silenced.
Oh, and what is with the non sequitor of when your appearance was? Nice try to deflect the real issue here. How much will the timing of when someone viewed your performance effect the message you sent to the entire nation?

Becca on February 10, 2007 at 9:38 pm

Well said, Becca.
I would only add that it is utter laughable the way the CNN panel dismissed the very notion of discrimination against atheists. They actually even go so forward as to claim that we are on the attack and that they are the one’s being persecuted (yet oddly, in the same breath they say this is a Christian nation).
As further evidence of the discrimination against atheists, and to lend support to Becca’s claim about how many atheists are forced to hide their views, I call attention to the fact that many states have laws against atheism.
This is so much larger than just atheists needing to “just leave Christians alone” and “shut up.” No, we will not shut up. This is blatant discrimination and it is wrong.
Here are some current state laws forbidding atheists and sometimes all non-Christians from such things as serving in a public office, becoming a notary public, or even acting as a witness in court.
Arkansas State Constitution, Article 19 Section 1
“No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.”
Maryland Declaration of Rights, Article 36
“That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore, no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate, on account of his religious persuasion, or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent, or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain, any place of worship, or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefore either in this world or in the world to come.”
Massachusetts State Constitution, Article 3
“Any every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.”
Mississippi State Constitution, Article 14, Section 265
“No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state.”
North Carolina State Constitution, Article 6 Section 8
“Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.”
Pennsylvania State Constitution, Article 1 Section 4
“No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.”
South Carolina State Constitution, Article 4 Section 2, also Section 8
“No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor who denies the existence of the Supreme Being; …”
Tennessee State Constitution, Article 9 Section 2
“No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.”
Texas State Constitution, Article 1 Section 4
“No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.”

ChristTheRedeemer on February 11, 2007 at 12:48 am