The Canadien asked, re: Thomas Jefferson, “…..what does he have to say that compares with the magnitude or eloquence of anything Jesus, the Christ, said.”
How about this?
“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
The Declaration of Independence

CarpeDiem on February 7, 2007 at 10:40 pm

“According to one, if the initial conditions of the universe were chosen randomly, there would only be one chance in 10^120 (that’s one with 120 zeros after it) that the universe would be livable. Cosmologist Roger Penrose has it vastly more unlikely: The exponent he suggests is 10^123.”
This sounds like an incorrect use of probability. What is the probability of rolling 3 dice and getting 1’s on all of them? Well, it depends. Before you can answer this question, you have to know some information. How many sides do each die have? Maybe they’re the normal 6-sided dice, or they could be 20-sided dice, or maybe it’s a 4-sided dice, a 10-sided dice, and a 100-sided dice. Are they fair dice? Perhaps one of the dice has only 1’s, or maybe one of them is weighted. And are they independent events? Maybe one of dice rolls depends on the other ones. For instance, perhaps the types of the second and third dice will be chosen based on the number that came up on the first die. As you can see, before you can answer this probability question, you need to have a lot more information about the sample space and the possible outcomes.
So, what’s the probability that the universe is the way it is? Well, what other possibilities are there? How likely are they? Do those universal constants depend on each other? How many different combinations of universal constants would give rise to some form of life? Do we even know the answer to these questions? Unless we do, any probability calculation here is absolutely meaningless. It’s like calculating the probability of getting a full house without knowing the size or type of the deck you’re playing with and how many cards you get dealt.
As for why it exists, does it need a reason? It’s probably difficult for human minds to accept that some things happen without a reason** (here I mean reason as in “purpose”, not reason as in “physics say when this happens then that occurs”). In any case, I just shuffled a standard deck of poker cards without the jokers. I won’t give you the full sequence here, but it starts with 4D 7H 2H 2C 9H 5C and ends with 2D JC 5C 8H 6H. The odds of getting a 52-card poker deck in exactly this sequence is 1/(52!), or about 1.24×10^-68. Incredibly unlikely, right? Can you explain the reason why it came up in this order, and not any other?
** This is probably because of pattern formation. If you see a tiger pattern in the bushes when there’s not really a tiger there, you get scared and run away. If you don’t see a tiger pattern in the bushes when there really is a tiger there, you get eaten. In the first case, you spend some energy running. In the second case, you get eaten and don’t pass on your genes. Thus, the mind is perhaps too good at forming patterns. For an example of this, see this optical illusion: http://www.coolopticalillusions.com/invisible_triangle.htm .

Zelc on February 7, 2007 at 10:42 pm

Hello Debbie,
I regret that you receive hate mail, but you no doubt intelligent enough to know that hate mail comes from people of lesser intelligence and does represent any group of people as a whole. I regret to see your views are so very intolerant and against all that represents the freedoms of people in this country. This is by no means a nation dedicated to any particular religion as you believe. In fact, the belief of nations being Christian or Muslim is quite counter-productive in the sense of peace being attained in this world. You think it is good that atheist and others opposed to your views are small in number and “weak”, but history only shows that your brand of discrimination, bigotry, and intolerance only strengthens the groups of people who it is directed against. You probably don’t realize it, but your behavior parallels more the behaviors of pagans toward Christians in the late Roman Empire. I firmly believe that the good people of the world will overcome people who share your shameful brand of bigotry and intolerance.

Truth Seeker on February 7, 2007 at 10:44 pm

BACON EATING ATHEIST JEW:
YOU are really FAT, and BALD, and UGLY!
I saw your ridiculous video snorting pepper. What a fool you are. You are just gross. Been eating too much bacon I see.
Ok, loser you prove nothing in that video except that you are disgusting.

CarpeDiem on February 7, 2007 at 10:58 pm

Shucks, no edit function! Anyway, I wanted to comment on this as well:
“Conversely, there is absolutely no proof that God does NOT exist. Hence, this is a matter of belief.”
I’d also like to say that there’s absolutely no proof that Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the Invisible Pink Unicorn don’t exist. Just because there’s no proof that something doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s OK to believe it. Indeed, it’s almost impossible to attain this proof. Does that mean we should believe in little green men on Mars?
If you’re up for some “light” reading on belief, I’d recommend this website: http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm . This website contains the text of two very famous articles and one not-so-famous article. The first is “The Ethics of Belief” by William K. Clifford, who criticizes belief without sufficient evidence. The second is the famous “The Will to Believe” by William James, a defense of belief. The third is a critique of The Will to Believe by A. J. Burger. While it’s a bit blunter than I would have liked, I think it is a fairly comprehensive rebuttal to “The Will to Believe” and is worth a read.

Zelc on February 7, 2007 at 10:59 pm

Zelc,
“I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice.”
Albert Einstein

WillPower on February 7, 2007 at 10:59 pm

Willpower:
If Albert Einstein said that, so what? He’s a human being (albeit a very intelligent one), and he can be wrong (especially since his specialty is physics, not philosophy of religion). Newton believed in alchemy, and we certainly think he’s wrong in that. Einstein was incredibly smart, but he wasn’t some prophet or visionary who could not possibly be wrong.
Besides, I think it’s been shown that Einstein wasn’t religious in this way. According to the Wikipedia article (yea yea, I know, Wikipedia can’t be trusted, but this article actually cites some reputable sources and quotes for that), Einstein never believed in a personal God, but used “God” to mean the natural laws.
It’s also interesting to note Einstein was wrong. This famous line was made in response to quantum mechanics, which now is widely accepted due to its amazing accuracy at describing and predicting observations.

Zelc on February 7, 2007 at 11:09 pm

***IS AMERICA A CHRISTIAN NATION?***
The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion. – John Adams, 11th article of the Treaty of Tripoli
ìChristianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on manî
-Thomas Jefferson
“The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”
–Abraham Lincoln
ìOf all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all menî
-Voltaire
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”
[James Madison, “A Memorial and Remonstrance”, 1785.]
“Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself.”
-Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800
“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.”
–Thomas Jefferson
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
–George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, 1792
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'”–John Adams
ìThe purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.î
-James Madison
“History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.”
[Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813.]
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
–James Madison
“Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.”
–James Madison
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”
–John Adams
“That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words.”
–Ethan Allen
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of… each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”–Thomas Paine
(The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY))
“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”–James Madison
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”–James Madison
(The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.)
“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion… has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.”–Benjamin Franklin
(Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.)
“The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained.”–Thomas Jefferson
(Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.)
“[…] denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”–Ethan Allen
(Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.))
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”
–James Madison
“No man on Earth has less taste or talent for criticism than myself, and the least and last of all should I undertake to criticize works on the Apocalypse (Revelations). It was between fifty and sixty years since I read it and then I considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams.”
–Thomas Jefferson
“The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.”–Thomas Jefferson
***WAS EINSTEIN RELIGIOUS?***
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
— Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press
A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
— Albert Einstein, “Religion and Science,” New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930
It was the experience of mystery — even if mixed with fear — that engendered religion.
— Albert Einstein (attributed: source unknown)
It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere…. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
— Albert Einstein, “Religion and Science,” New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930
I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
— Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press
One strength of the Communist system … is that it has some of the characteristics of a religion and inspires the emotions of a religion.
— Albert Einstein, Out Of My Later Years (1950), quoted from Laird Wilcox, ed., “The Degeneration of Belief”
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own — a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
— Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955, quoted from James A Haught, “Breaking the Last Taboo” (1996)
Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.
— Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray. Source: Albert Einstein: The Human Side, Edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann
I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance — but for us, not for God.
— Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press
I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.
— Albert Einstein, The World as I See It
I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet.
— Albert Einstein, letter, 1954
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress….If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life.
— Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941
The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning. The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there’s any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism….If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. Immortality? There are two kinds. The first lives in the imagination of the people, and is thus an illusion. There is a relative immortality which may conserve the memory of an individual for some generations. But there is only one true immortality, on a cosmic scale, and that is the immortality of the cosmos itself. There is no other.
— Albert Einstein, quoted in Madalyn Murray O’Hair, All the Questions You Ever Wanted to Ask American Atheists (1982) vol. ii., p. 29

Goon on February 7, 2007 at 11:18 pm

I would like to comment on your assertion that Atheist are all going to become Muslim Extremeists because two Atheist’s followed that path.
It disturbs me that you are grouping millions upon millions of people together and are making assumptions about them based on the actions of 2 people.
If I were to do this for people of the Christian faith, I could very easily assume that all Christians are Kool-Aid drinking gay bashers that protest military funerals (and in case you are unaware of the references, I am basing my judgment by the actions of Jim Jones and Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church).
Now obviously that is not true. How do I know that? Because I am a rational person. I would like to think that most people are like me and realize that there are extremes in every faith, every race, and every walk of life. Unfortunatly, you do not seem to be one of those people.

D*Rek on February 7, 2007 at 11:26 pm

“The most beautiful and most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive formsÔø?this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”
“My religion,” he says, “consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.”
Dr. Albert Einstein
Yes, all humans can be wrong, even atheists. Only God is infallible.
SO, is Schrodinger’s cat alive, dead or both?

WillPower on February 7, 2007 at 11:26 pm

Hey Goon,
Why do you need so many back up quotes? These must be kept handy for whenever you are challenged, right?
Why the desperate need to prove there is no God?
OMG, I typed GOD….is that allowed?

CarpeDiem on February 7, 2007 at 11:35 pm

“Why do you need so many back up quotes? These must be kept handy for whenever you are challenged, right?”
Nice try. Stop trying to dodge the facts.

Goon on February 7, 2007 at 11:38 pm

CarpeDiem: I guess I ought to elaborate. You didn’t actually offer any counterargument. In fact you ignored the huge pile of evidence I presented that America was not founded by Christians or on Christian ideals, and that Einstein was in fact nonreligious.
All you did was insult me like an upset child because you couldn’t argue with the quotes.

Goon on February 7, 2007 at 11:43 pm

America was founded on secular enlightenment principles by the founding fathers, who were (for the record) deistic/agnostic freemasons. It is not a Christian nation and never was; the references to the Christian god found on our money and in our pledge were put there during the cold war in an evangelical attempt to redefine America as inherently Christian in order to differentiate us from the “godless commies”.
America is not a Christian nation, but it is also not an atheist nation. It’s for all men and women of all colors and faiths. We’re not stealing the nation from the Christians, because it was never theirs: We’re simply intent on putting an end to the preferential treatment that Christians enjoy due to relatively recent evangelical corruption of the goverment.
This was intended to be a country for everyone, and we intend to see to it that America returns to that ideal.

Goon on February 7, 2007 at 11:51 pm

Foolproof test of whether someone’s an atheist or an anti-theist: When they mouth off all angered for any reason, pause for a moment, look ’em gently in the eye (maybe put your hand on their arm), and ask:
“Have you let the love of Jesus Christ into your heart today….?”
An atheist will shrug it off as a light-hearted joke (“Ha-ha, very funny” etc.).
An anti-theist will get even angrier at you. One guy I know blows up every time. Never fails.

Jeremiah on February 7, 2007 at 11:56 pm

Foolproof test of whether someone’s a theist or an anti-atheist: When they mouth off all angered for any reason, pause for a moment, look ’em gently in the eye (maybe put your hand on their arm), and ask:
“Did you know that God is just an made-up being that doesn’t exist?”
A theist will shrug it off as a light-hearted joke (“Ha-ha, very funny” etc.).
An anti-atheist will get even angrier at you. There seem to be lots of those in this thread…

Zelc on February 8, 2007 at 12:02 am

Debbie, you are a bigot. End of story.

aoeuhtns on February 8, 2007 at 12:06 am

While you may like to think that a person is evil, just because of a lack of relegious beleif, that is what most people call ignorance, for one an Athiest (like myself) would not become a terrorist because of a conversion to muslim mainly because it is the lack of relegious beleif that made them athiest in the first place (some one without relegious beleifs isnt going to kill someone for extreme relegious beleifs), that or that most of us use a little thing called LOGIC and decided that blind faith in a book written 2000 years ago by people who thought the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe is most likely MADE UP to explain what they dont understand (just like the greek and roman gods, HINT HINT). If you think about it a strong christian person is more likely to kill someone over their beleifs than someone who has none (remeber the crusades anyone). So next time you want to point fingers at some one, try not to slander people(its illegal). And please attempt to use a little common sence, and if its not to much to ask know what your talking about first

Justin on February 8, 2007 at 12:06 am

you are an ignorant cunt. cunt cunt cunt. ban me if you want you cunt faced shit eating shmegma. GO BUTT_FUCK YOUR FACE!!!!!!

mcscoots on February 8, 2007 at 12:07 am

ROTFLMAO. I just can’t get my head around atheist hate mail.
What are they going to do – damn you? No belief in God, no damnation…
Tell you to go to hell? No heaven, no hell…
And you have to wonder, atheists don’t believe in God so why would they care what Debbie, a mere mortal, says? Are we sure this isn’t a Geico commercial?

Curly Smith on February 8, 2007 at 12:08 am

Amazing. Sad commentary on the lack of reason present in the public discourse. How on earth you can argue that a great preponderance of athiests end up as religeous fundimentalists (based on two cases? are you serious?) is beyond me. I was raised in a fundimentalist household and ended up agnostic. Does that mean that all Christians will become agnostics? I think not. I realize your and your ilk’s brand of yellow journalism might enable you to rake in the dough, but ultimately you do yourself and your country a great disservice.

organic on February 8, 2007 at 12:16 am

GOON,
I’m not upset, I’m laughing my ass off at you atheists!

CarpeDiem on February 8, 2007 at 12:19 am

lol y’s everyone so bent out of shape? hows about, we all decide that we have more interesting things to talk about. Anyone getting this upset over cable news is missing the point. Everybody breathe, no ones trying to make anyone do anything. Just relax

cxxfxxh on February 8, 2007 at 12:26 am

God, I love the hypocracy of the Fundies. They go to church every Sunday and prattle about loving their neighbor, but the moment they get out in the real world and run into someone who doesn’t think exactly like they do, they go apeshit.
Just look at some of the lovely examples of Christian “compassion” popping up in this thread:
“That atheist is an idiot.”
“amply evidenced in her soulless choice to embrace the dumb religion of atheism.”
“wabi, you’re an idiot and an enemy of the West.”
“ManÖI look at atheists and I am just laughing.
Long before YOU atheists rejected usÖwe rejected you!
MAKE NO MISTAKE atheistsÖCatholics and other Christians, and Jews for that matter, want nothing to do with your aimless, wandering and worthless lives”
“BACON EATING ATHEIST JEW:
YOU are really FAT, and BALD, and UGLY!
I saw your ridiculous video snorting pepper. What a fool you are. You are just gross. Been eating too much bacon I see.
Ok, loser you prove nothing in that video except that you are disgusting.”
I guess all that “golden rule” stuff is passe now that Jackboot Christianity is on the march…

jasper_calhoun on February 8, 2007 at 12:30 am

The fact that I’m Jewish just makes me hate you that much more. I hope people don’t get the impression that all Jewish people are fanatic morons like this bitch.
Just so you know, I’m also Atheist. And I’m sure you won’t be able to understand that — “OMG HOW CAN HE BE BOTH JEWISH AND ATHEIST?!” — but there is an entire world of intelligence out there ready for your bastardization. Maybe soak some in while your at it?
I emailed CNN yesterday because I saw the video WHICH WAS POSTED ON THE NET, and I was fucking pissed at what I saw. I didn’t email you, I emailed CNN. And I wasn’t told by anybody to email, I did so because I am an individualist and I am an American who believes in the CONSTITUTION.
I have the utmost doubts that you actually understand our Constitution or our Bill of Rights, or what our founding father envisioned for this great country, so I’ll spare you the lecture that will just go over your useless head.
Instead I’ll just say that I hope you realize ignorance is the #1 threat to America, and you are only contributing to it. I hope you realize this before it’s too late.

debbiefanatic on February 8, 2007 at 12:35 am

I think most of your points have been very well refuted already, but I also take offense to your statement that atheists “don’t believe in anything.” Obviously if you had bothered to consult a dictionary, you’d see that atheists simply have a little problem with the idea of an invisible man in the sky. We do believe in some things–Some of us believe it’s unfortunate the web gives every uninformed loudmouth a platform. People say there’s no such thing as bad publicity, but I think in your case, your ignorance on the subject comes through quite clearly.

Chris on February 8, 2007 at 12:39 am

Well I suspect as your in showbiz you love all this noise-heck i cant imagine any other reason that i would end up reading your blog. Its OK – i dont blame you for your comments – it is obvious that this is what it takes to be on top – to be heard as a women in ‘news’ and I am cool with that. Heck Stern says all sorts of stuff that I am certain he cracks up about later knowing that the masses are churning it into butter. You are very well educated and I imagine laughing to the bank. All of this chatter above- all of the anger in all of the different directions = money! You are an American and our religion is capitalism and you are doing well 🙂 Me…I have traveled to 38 different countries in my life and met so many good and some bad people. I have been stabbed by a group of Muslims in a Bangkok (long story) but they were mad bout the first war in Iraq and took it out on me 😉 I have made Muslim friends in Egypt less then 2 months ago and of course have many many Christian friends as well as about any/every other believer you might run into. One thing is certain for me – people everywhere all love their children and most people really just want food, water, health and a little luck in life-and perhaps cable tv…
Keep up the good work – your Brand and marketing machine is churning this into gold and a book will easily follow. The extreme born agains, the angry atheists and the Islamic fundamentalist all share one thing- they are all sure that they are right-well they cant all be right…now how does
a white upper middle class guy get a few million angry people to hit his web site….I can only dream 🙂

DM on February 8, 2007 at 12:40 am

@CarpeDiem:
“Why the desperate need to prove there is no God?”
Because, as I see it, belief in God often causes people to do crazy things which can be from annoying to dangerous.
“OMG, I typed GOD….is that allowed?”
WHERE are some theists getting the idea that atheists want to make it illegal to be religious, or even say “God”? Where? THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE AGAINST. No one should be forced to believe or not believe ANYTHING, or say or not say anything. That is why we get upset and send “hatemail” when people talk like it’s ok to silence minorities (or anyone). We’re not saying it should be illegal to say what you’re saying, we’re just saying we think you are very, disturbingly, wrong.
But as always I’ll defend your right to say it, regardless.

superjer on February 8, 2007 at 12:42 am

Debbie,
I would like to respond to some of the comments you have made on tv, whenever it was aired. I do not believe in the need for obscenities nor threats. I believe that everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe in. This goes for Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and many other religions that I don’t have room to mention. I am not against prayer in school for any religion. I just am against an adult leading any kind of prayer in school. To me, an adult leading prayer is telling all students that this is what you should believe. Every child should be able to make up their own mind on religion and not have to give in to peer pressure from a teacher or adult about what the “American Religion” is today.
I also would like to comment on you saying that “America is a Christian Nation.” Since the day whites first began to colonize the “new world,” there has been a melting pot in this nation. It was mostly British to begin with, but then many other European nation immigrants came to America. We also had African-American slaves in past times. We are very much still a melting pot nation today. If we are telling all these people it’s ok to live here, why do we want to force them to believe in a Christian god? Is Buddha not a good enough god? What about Jesus? What about Mohammed? I think it is unfair to label the American nation as a Christian nation even though it is the majority in this day. We are potentially leaving out many influential citizens of this great country.
I would also have to disagree with atheists being grouped with Muslim Fundamentalists. I believe it’s important to remember that it is the Muslim Fundamentalists that do not like America. Many Muslims love our nation and have nothing against it. Just because we(atheists) don’t believe in any higher power doesn’t mean that we don’t have any morals. I would never harm anyone. I can’t hit an animal let alone a human being. I just want peace, but to have that we all must learn to except each other’s beliefs.
Finally atheism is not a religion. It is a lack of any higher power at all. We look at the science behind evolution and other science facts and find it very hard to disprove them.
I do hope you take the time to read this so that you understand that not every atheist is an angry hypocrite.
Lisamarvy

Lisamarvy on February 8, 2007 at 12:59 am

A popular atheist-leaning philosophical discussion board (includes discussions on religion): http://iidb.org
(I’m am a non-theist – I don’t believe in a god)
(Can I also apologize for all the “hate mail” you’ve allegedly received. That’s really unfortunate. But Atheists [not me, though] are claiming you did hate speech about them. I don’t agree with their assessment [i view YOUR opinion on this to be a poorly formed political opinion, at best-no offense])
(And yes, there is the temptation to accuse somebody who doesn’t agree with you of hate speech)
(Just because I disagree with you, don’t mean that *I* hate you, or anything. I just believe you have mistaken beliefs, and I have no doubt that you would feel the same way about me.)
——————-
Quote to think about: “We are all atheists. I just believe in 1 less god than you do.”
Another quote: “When Christians ‘attack’…….it’s called Evangelizing”
——————-
Debbie, my parents tried to indoctrinate me into THEIR version of Christianity for no less than 15 YEARS, since earlier than I can remember. During adolescence I realized that I didn’t believe in ANY of the supernatural mumbo-jumbo they tried to convince me of. So now I call myself a non-theist, because I don’t believe in a god.
If you could only know 1 think about Atheists, know this: An Atheists’ views (should) always be subject to change. Atheism wouldn’t exist if religion didn’t, it would be redundant. Atheists DON’T know everything, Atheists have QUESTIONS, that religion has never been able to satisfactorily answer.
Debbie, your case of “When Atheists a/k/a Future Muslims Attack” is poorly made at best. You said as much on the CNN panel. I think I speak for Non-theists and atheists alike, when I say that us non-theists find your views on this to be very offensive, and ridiculous. How would you like if I called all CHRISTIANS as being FUTURE MUSLIMS? You would find that offensive, as well, wouldn’t you?
Do you not realize that Muslims’ view of Atheists is just as worse as their view of Christians? The Quran tells them to kill Atheists and Christians alike.
As far as I know, Atheists generally view Muslims as Neanderthal cave-dwellers. Atheists generally view Christianity also as superstitious cave-dwellers, but admittedly Christianity’s stance on many issues do make it a much more logical alternative than Islam, if one had to be chosen (Christianity is the lesser of 2 evils, ironically). Christians are dwelling at the MOUTH of the cave, perhaps, heh.
I myself have debated on an online forum AGAINST a Muslim from the United Arab Emirates; this Muslim kept on trying to convince everybody that the “Eternal Happy Place” exists.
Do you believe in an “Eternal Happy Place”, Debbie? Most Christians do. Seems to me that is is CHRISTIANS who are a/k/a FUTURE MUSLIMS.
So, now I’ve said it.
CHRISTIANS are a/k/a FUTURE MUSLIMS, and they are ON THE ATTACK (ie, EVANGELIZING). RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!

Highlord Kruul on February 8, 2007 at 12:59 am

It doesn’t seem to take a lot of deep thinking and personal agony to look around, see only what you’d like to see, pronounce God dead and carry on with a life of hedonism and arrogant condescension toward those with a spiritual view of the world.
Do you have a right to live in denial? yes.
Do you have a right to be respected for worshipping yourself and (insert vice)? No.
Should you be respected for your shortsighted willful ignorance disguised as freedom and enlightenment? No.
Interesting those who would destroy the nation and replace it with Godless communism quote Jefferson as though he was anything other than a rich white slave owner. As usual, the gluttony of the self important shines through, wanting it both ways.
Shame has vanished from America in many ways.
Blind leading the blind in endless vain imaginings, ever seeking the truth, but never coming to an understanding.
There are old atheists, but way more young, stupid ones.

icanplainlysee on February 8, 2007 at 1:00 am

Thank you, xtheists.
With your sick, twisted, hate filled posts here you have just proven every thing Debbie, me, and others have said about you is 100% correct.
You xtheists are no more interested in freedom of thought or belief than anyone you rail against.

The_Man on February 8, 2007 at 1:21 am

hi,
Not an atheist, but truly saddened. How many young Christians turn from the faith when they see public Christians acting un-Christ like? How many other religions do you inflame by claiming you should have your right to a public Christmas at the expense of others rights to Yule, Chanukah and Kwanzaa? What about the Rabbi in Oregon that demanded a menorah next to the Christmas trees at the airport? Or the Pagan widow fighting for her husbands right to have a pentacle on his military headstone? How many people of different religions are being oppressed by the Christian right? How long do you believe this will continue?
This country is a Republic to prevent the majority from trampling on the rights of the minority. That is the way it was intended to be set up. It is not a Democracy, a Republic. Take pol 101. The WHOLE reason a president can’t be popularly voted into office, is to keep the rights of the minorities secure. What you propose is the opposite. You claim it is a Christian Nation and we should get used to it. While yes, the majority of people are Christian, the government and it’s structure was supposed to keep the non-Christians safe from this non-sense…or rather the minorities. What happened in the Republic is a mess, one party took control of all three branches and over rode most of the protections implemented in the Constitution, and to add to it the Democrats didn’t even raise an eye brow in opposition. Now we have a polarized, religious, holy war in the media for all the ignorant to rant about. A nice distraction so the politicians, Democrat and Republican, can sell us all out fiscally and morally. They have turned this country into a despot with religion as the spear head and righteousness or lack thereof reason to turn on your neighbor, attack your co workers, deny service to the young and weak, deny jobs for those that are different. THAT is Un-American. Divide and conquer, and be damned the way they do it.
LOOK. We are all in the same boat. We all have to live here. Stop making it unpleasant to live here and start thinking this way…What if in 100 years a new religion came to power? What if a new Church rose from this crisis state and took a firm reign on the despot the politicians have made this to be? What if, heaven forbid, it was Scientologists, or Pagans, or anything you truly hate? By making it easier for your majority status to impose the rule of law, well one need only convert enough people to take control..no Senate to over run with political leaders, no uniformed contract with America, etc…all that sect would need to do is get a president and a public majority to take over. How stupid. The whole country was ruined for the sake of greed and left defenseless by the very people supposed to protect it. Now all the deluded run around screaming at each other because the media says there is a culture war. The war is made up BY the media and politicians. As a result people are openly ridiculed in AMERICA for their beliefs. Disgusting.
What ever happened to “What would Jesus do?” The one who spoke to prostitutes…the one who never hurt a soul…the one most of these zealots CLAIM to worship. Do you really want to meet Jesus in the second coming? Could you honestly stand before him and NOT be afraid?
Think, speak, and be like Christ if you are a Christian. If you are Jewish, act more like it. I have NEVER met a Jewish person SO discriminatory before. Most are sweet people. MOST are thankful to have their family escape oppression from the hands of Hitler. Most remember the Holocaust and the damage intolerance of a religion can cause. MOST are mindful of Gods will…and not a hateful monster. Maybe you and God need a long talk.

aukxsona on February 8, 2007 at 1:31 am

.
.
Debbie, I’m an atheist and not a future muslim, or any other religion for that matter. You’d have to be a moron to make such a generalized assumption.
Regardless, I hope more people become atheists because that means there’ll be less chance that religious nutcases like you will exist.
Just to make sure I go to ‘hell'(hah) – I deny the existence of a holy spirit.
Have a nice day.

a-is-for-atheist on February 8, 2007 at 1:34 am

mod, that was not helpful at all :(. All you managed to do is cover up a lot of the discussion, make atheists look really stupid, and feed into the Christian Persecution Complex. Please stop, thanks.

Zelc on February 8, 2007 at 1:35 am

Well, I have ti respectfully disagree with you.
Even though you are intentionally attempting to incite us atheists (and judging from this page, you have done that well) and even though your pointless rantings are hate filled, I fully support your right to express them.
I believe when you rant and rave you support our cause more than we ever could!
I saw the CNN video on youtube, the link if you would like it is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU
For the record, I am against Christianity and Islam, as well as any other religion that claims a supernatural origin to the universe. I believe in the separation of Church and State. (Not only to keep religion out of the government, but to keep government out of religion.)
Enjoy your few minutes in the spotlight! I wish you the best!
-Jim Stryker

Kergillian on February 8, 2007 at 1:37 am

At the risk of sounding biased, I have forgone any comments beyond the first ten. Except the spam. I’m not sure what ‘mod’ hopes to accomplish, but couldn’t someone ban him or at least trim his posts to a non-spammish level?
Anyhow, Ms. Schlussel — I can’t seem to take you seriously. Your entire rant has been a circus act, and I congratulate you on gathering so much traffic and publicity from it. You are truly the Paris Hilton of the blogging world right now. I just wish you could find a more positive outlet for your childish attention mongering behavior.
Any claim to ignorance you once had is gone in the day and age of viral marketing, wherein a single comment can spread to millions of people through the internet. To claim that the atheists hounding you are sheep is just to be unwilling to accept the fact that you have angered so many people with your bigotry. It is akin to saying something to the effect of “Just because the Anglicans demanded Protestant subservience, the Protestants are ganging up on the Anglicans like sheep.” You attempted to single out an entire spectrum of people following a set of ideals. You succeeded. Don’t be surprised when you find they all stand against you with a single voice…
You know what? Forget it. I’m not going to further assist your rise to Republican Champion. I made a rather bold (and quite probably erroneous) assumption that you actually read what other people have to say.. but then we wouldn’t be here. The best way to deal with people seeking attention is to ignore them. So sit back, oh so confident in your superiority, and have fun with your own personal 15 minutes.

Jason on February 8, 2007 at 1:38 am

Wow Debbie, you indeed stirred a hornet’s nest by calling a spade a spade! The atheists showed how low they can degrade when they throw out G_d from their lives. Look at the filthy racist posts by ‘mod’ and the meaningless ultra-defensive posts by other atheist retards.
These atheist morons are fighting with the moslems for the WE_ARE_THE_BIGGEST_ASSHOLES award. I think we should call it a tie and let both the terrorist groups share the award.

anonymous twit on February 8, 2007 at 1:40 am

Hi Debbie,
Your site was linked to from a very tech oriented social news site whos members tend to be very young and immature.
I just wanted to say that I regret our “belief” is so accessible to such hateful individuals.
After reading your blog I did come to the conclusion that your own commentary is also full of derogatory comments.
Who is right here? Those that spam a blog full of hateful trite or those that use big words to make a blog full of hateful trite?

lolled on February 8, 2007 at 1:50 am

So I wonder how Debbie would feel if someone gave the same little rant she did on CNN, only substituting “Jews” for “Atheists”:
SCHLUSSEL: No, I agree with her 100 percent. I think that the real discrimination is Jews against Americans…Listen, we are a Christian nation…And the problem is that, you have these Jews selectively I believe attacking Christianity. …I really believe that they are the ones who are the intolerant ones against Christians…They are on the attack. It’s obnoxious and they do need to shut up. …
SCHLUSSEL: (INAUDIBLE) Look where there are more Jews and where they’ve lost God, where the church is not that strong…That’s the one reason our country has not become like Europe because we have strong Christians and because Jews are not strong. And I think that’s a good thing.

jasper_calhoun on February 8, 2007 at 1:59 am

I’m an atheist and I’d like to apologize for the numbskull who is spamming your site. I’m ashamed that he is probably an atheist as well.
We aren’t all bad… 🙂

Brian on February 8, 2007 at 2:01 am

It’s obvious by now that you were wrong about nobody having seen your video on CNN so I won’t bother restating that.
You say that people who lack belief in anything will fall for nothings. Atheists don’t lack belief in anything, they lack belief in a god. We have many beliefs about many things – usually these beliefs are strong and well-supported by evidence.
Your assertion that atheists are a short step away from converting to radical Islam would be humorous if it was intended to be a joke because this is a condtradiction of terms. Atheists believe that Muslims are misled by their belief in a god and their religious texts. We think it’s silly that they have these beliefs and we think the world would be a better place if these beliefs didn’t exist. Christianity and Islam as equally ridiculous in the eyes of an atheist.

Brian on February 8, 2007 at 2:12 am

jasper_calhoun:
Re: Video by BACON EATING ATHEIST JEW
Did you watch his video on “blasphemy” ? If you look at it you will see that my comments are accurate. The video is disgusting and so is he.

CarpeDiem on February 8, 2007 at 2:18 am

Hey CarpeDiem:
And what exactly did that video have to do with the subject? Maybe you should try again when you can debate like an adult instead of just saying FATTY FATTY FATTY like a third grader.

jasper_calhoun on February 8, 2007 at 2:24 am

Before you write me off as an atheist since it appears that anyone who posts a contrasting point of view on your site is labeled an atheist, let me state that I’m Catholic. On a second note, I would also like to state that I am also a current Bush supporter (but not for the reasons you might expect).
I decided to register in order to comment because I took the time to read through your previous postings as well as the comments posted by your supporters throughout a site to get a general sense of your point of view and the logical arguments (or lack thereof) which you use to make your points. I was hesitant at first to spend the time to make a comment, but I’m tired of the growing trend in America of people using emotions, assumptions as well as stereotypes to create points of view and opinion rather than using actual facts and figures.
One of the main arguments you make in your post is that there is atheists are future Muslims in disguise. I fail to see the connection. You point to two cases of well known Muslims that have atheist associations and use it as evidence to your claim that atheists are future Muslims.
Rather than using any actual statistical methods or facts you’ve decided to use the negative connotation of certain Muslims in order to override people’s sense of logic and reasoning. But you don’t seem like the type of person who uses numbers in order to make arguments so I’ll follow the same line of argument that you use to derive your conclusions.
Let me first disprove the first argument you made which “Look at famous atheists and what happened to them. Adam Gadahn a/k/a Azzam Al-Amriki–now a top Al-Qaeda video “personality”–was raised by his hippie Jewish father and equally bizarre gentile mother as an atheist. And look how he turned out. Ditto for hippie-spawn John Walker Lindh.” Of course I would hardly consider none of these people famous, but I’ll play along just to make a point.
The easiest method for me to counter this argument is to list of famous atheists:
Abraham Lincoln: “The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”
Andrew Carnegie: “I donít believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.”
Benjamin Franklin: “I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”
Would you consider any of the previously listed people above Muslim any any way? If you’re willing to say yes, then you may want to take a look again at American history and what these individuals have done for America.
Next off, you made another point of how Europe is quickly becoming Islamic. Taking a look and using actual facts and figures which I will happily cite if requested, I found that the number of people who are stating that they are non-religious in Europe has been growing for the last decade or so (excluding Germany) and although Islam has been growing in Western Europe, there was a direct statistical correlation in terms of Muslim immigration to Europe. Therefore your argument is incorrect. Europe is becoming more Islamic only because there are more Muslim immigrants moving to Europe, not because atheists are converting to Islam.
“Over here, as I pointed out on CNN, atheists are on the attack against religion and G-d only when Christians and Jews are involved, not when Muslims and Islam are”
As I’ve stated earlier, I’m Catholic. However I’m a staunch supporter of a separation between religion and government. The last thing I want is religion permeating into our current government. The problem with religion is that at the barest level it is an opinion and not a fact. Once you start mixing opinions and facts, you skew logical arguments and thinking. The worse case of this is religious advocates who support the idea that Earth is only 6,000 years old despite clear evidence otherwise. Do you really want this type of material being taught in schools? This is the reason why even as a Catholic, I believe that church and state needs to a strong separation.
There was a reason why the original pledge of allegiance had no mention of god:
“I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” and I strongly support the reasons behind it as would I believe the founding fathers of our nation.

b0wl0fud0n on February 8, 2007 at 2:25 am

jasper_calhoun:
That video has everything to do with this subject!
You didn’t answer my question! Did you watch it?If so, why don’t you describe what he is doing in the video?
Then we can all judge exactly who is infantile.

CarpeDiem on February 8, 2007 at 2:31 am

Sigh,
This is all drivel.
do atheists really believe the world would be a better place believing in nothing. How easy it must be to give up the search for greater truth at such an early age.
And as for you
shut the fuck up please
to your “hell” spoon fed ignorance
I’m sure your god is real impressed
I read somewhere that god is love
and isn’t the ultimate goal of any religion to model it’s prophets and teachings?
people need to throw their televisions out the window and educate themselves.they need to read the teachings of their “god” so that the next time someone spews out this hateful bullshit in the name of a god, people won’t respond in such a manner. they will say “hmm, well that doesn’t seem right” instead of labeling an entire group.
QUIT LETTING OTHER PEOPLE TELL YOU WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG AND FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF.
that’s about all i have to say

Themachinegunopera on February 8, 2007 at 2:34 am

Posted elsewhere, but thought I’d share with you fine folks here…
Having only seen that CNN clip and her subsequent comments on here on her blog… I would have bet money that Schlussel was a gag; some caricature of complete stupidity that had somehow garnered a few seconds of notice.
Is it more sad that this woman is real… or that I’m kinda looking forward to watching a gracious group of folk completely and utterly humiliate her on her own website. Who has the popcorn?
Kirk
PS, mod, not cool.

plasticquart on February 8, 2007 at 2:35 am

What video are you talking about? I don’t see any video in this thread. If you want to play internet detective and track down irrelevant videos that’s up to you, but I’ll stick to what’s actually posted in this thread, and what you posted was pretty damn immature.

jasper_calhoun on February 8, 2007 at 2:39 am

Edit: (speaking to CarpeDiem, not Plasticquart)

jasper_calhoun on February 8, 2007 at 2:41 am