“We thank you God, to send us your messages through our father Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Mohammed.”
Not only do Muslims believe in the same God as Jews and Christians, but they also revere the same prophets.
I’m not going to speculate why the Democrats picked this guy to deliver a prayer, but hey, at least the Democrats aren’t godless anymore.

Norman Blitzer on February 2, 2007 at 6:56 pm

The Democrats are still godless because the Muslims are the adherents of a false prophet. A false prophet does not know God. This so called Allah was a pagan idol in the Arab pantheon. Muhammad appropriated him from this pagan pantheon

dennisw on February 2, 2007 at 7:27 pm

Ohhh… the democrats are our friends, aren’t they?
They’re just adorable!

Leo Pusateri on February 2, 2007 at 10:36 pm

Somewhere in the high mountains there is an old saying:
“If you let someone to step on your back they will surely step on your head”
aren’t these the same democrat who rant about separation of church and state all the time what is the purpose of allowing a nutcase professor of an intolerant ideology to spew his venom in their convention.
is this how they show their tolerance and show how great they are?

Birbhadra on February 2, 2007 at 11:48 pm

An Israeli by the name of Zev Chavets just wrote a book called “Match Made in Heaven”. It’s about how evangelical Christians support Israel overwhelmingly and how largely secular American Jews reject that support.
I would go so far as to argue that most American Jews would actually support the destruction of the state of Israel.
Mr. Chavets was on Dennis Praeger this week, where he talked about the hostile reception given him (despite the fact he is not religious) by liberal (read Democratic) American Jews. He says, however, that a reform Jewish congregation in Michigan (I don’t remember which one, but it’s on the podcast) was highly appreciative.
Mr. Chavets says that American Jews are so overwhelmingly liberal and Democratic that Jimmy Carter would receive 60% support were he the nominee, and Cynthia McKinney would get 50%.
Blind support for the Democrats, increasingly the party of anti-Israel Jihad and anti-Semitism, runs totally contrary to the interests of American Jewry. The response to the extended evangelical hand: to spit upon it.

sonomaca on February 3, 2007 at 1:24 am

An Israeli by the name of Zev Chavets just wrote a book called “Match Made in Heaven”. It’s about how evangelical Christians support Israel overwhelmingly and how largely secular American Jews reject that support.
I would go so far as to argue that most American Jews would actually support the destruction of the state of Israel.
Mr. Chavets was on Dennis Praeger this week, where he talked about the hostile reception given him (despite the fact he is not religious) by liberal (read Democratic) American Jews. He says, however, that a reform Jewish congregation in Michigan (I don’t remember which one, but it’s on the podcast) was highly appreciative.
Mr. Chavets says that American Jews are so overwhelmingly liberal and Democratic that Jimmy Carter would receive 60% support were he the nominee, and Cynthia McKinney would get 50%.
Blind support for the Democrats, increasingly the party of anti-Israel Jihad and anti-Semitism, runs totally contrary to the interests of American Jewry. The response to the extended evangelical hand: to spit upon it.

sonomaca on February 3, 2007 at 1:25 am

Whats depressing is that the Democrats are going to get away with it. You’ll see this story here and in other conservative media venues, but those who only ever look at the MSM will only see dresses adorned with Hillary’s face being modeled. What are the chances that the RNC will use the images and sounds of this event in any TV ad during the ’08 campaign season? Well, it won’t happen because the RNC is a bunch of wusses who are more worried about being called “mean-spirited” than they are about telling the real truth about Democrats.
And one more thing. Nothing makes me more nauseous than for anyone to use the name of Abraham, Moses, or Jesus in the same sentence with Mohammed, who was the demon possessed mouthpiece of an Arabian pagan idol.

CornCoLeo on February 3, 2007 at 11:28 am

NormB,
In case you didn’t bother to read it, here is the interpretation given by Spencer at JW:
“In mentioning “Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Mohammed” I expect that he sounded wonderfully generous and ecumenical to the assembled Democrats. But in fact, he was almost certainly invoking them in their capacity as Muslim prophets: it is mainstream Islam that all of these were prophets who taught Islam, and that the followers of Moses and Jesus corrupted their teachings to create Judaism and Christianity. So what seems to be a gesture of ecumenical generosity is actually a declaration of religious imperialism and the delegitimization of other religions.”
allah is not God or G-d, allah is satan. Thus,
2 Corinthians Chapter 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Mo is a false prophet as foretold by Jesus:
Matthew Chapter 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruitsÔø?.

WillPower on February 3, 2007 at 4:10 pm

great. sweet. When will this shiite end? Sunni rather than later. Wahhabbi to the party of JFK? Are the Dems just another wife for the Mujahadeen, or does Islam finally support homosexual “rights” and will form the Lezbollah party?
There’s very little time (less than 36 months) before the inertia will be too powerful to stop our “progress” towards oblivion. I was taught racism, sexism, socialism, and communism were evil and intolerable. Sheesh. Their mob begats their mob, and it will rule.

SickBoy on February 3, 2007 at 6:46 pm

Another example of how clueless the Democrats are!!! However, some Republicans need to learn this lesson too!!!

OneIrishJew on February 3, 2007 at 8:18 pm

To NormanBlitzer:
I have seen your posts and usually I can quickly say, “another stupid one” and move along. This one where you call the god of islam the same as the God of Christianity and Judaism “the same God” demands a direct response. You write:
“Not only do Muslims believe in the same God as Jews and Christians, but they also revere the same prophets”
You are ignorant to make such a foolish statement. Where Judaism and Christianity have a huge body of Scripture in common–and the same moral law in the 10 commandments–islam has niether. Every prophet and account in the Bible was retold as a totally different thing in the koran. Islam calls on all muslims to wage jihad war on all kaffir/infidels. It commands them to HATE all infidels in their hearts and to forcibly subject them to islam. It tells the muslimes to lie to the infidels to be as cunning as mohammed (a curse be upon him and all who call him “the prophet”).
Why you hang around on Debbie’s site and constantly post the stupid posts you do amazes me–bankrupt Air America is where you belong. This one takes the cake. How you can read DS material day after day and still put such stupid comments up after being told off so many times by DS and others is like a sick joke. Why don’t you read the site material. I also suggest you start checking out jihadwatch.org and islamundressed.com too. Then you could get educated about our enemies and have something intelligent to offer.

BB on February 3, 2007 at 9:13 pm

Debbie I know plenty of liberal Jews and they are consistently anti-Israel. They tell me that America is the promised land. If so, I’d like to annex Palm Beach County, Florida. Anyway, Debbie what is the meaning of all these “P.H.O.” bumper stickers I keep seeing?

Anonymous1 on February 3, 2007 at 9:56 pm

BB,
You are a complete idiot!
Many people believe that God and Allah are the same entity for a variety of legitimate reasons. Just because you and others believe that’s not true doesn’t make it so. There’s a lot of good and bad stuff in both the Koran and the Bible. I’ve already quoted 1 Samuel 15 in another topic where Samuel claims God wants Saul to commit genocide against the Amalekites.
As for “being told off”, I’ve rebutted all those ignorant statements with facts, unlike you who compounds his idiocy with stupidity.

Norman Blitzer on February 4, 2007 at 8:03 am

NB:
What is abregation, and how does it affect Judaism, Christianity, and Submission {read, “Islam.”}
Yaweh Elohim is the same as Allah?
When exactly did the last Cherum begin and end? …and the last Jihad?
Who gave the Ten Commandments and why? {Note: Change “kill” to the original “murder.”
God sanctions marriages to children?
Friend of Bill W are ya?

SickBoy on February 4, 2007 at 1:45 pm

“Just because you and others believe that’s not true doesn’t make it so.”
NormB,
Your statement above applies to you as well. Just because YOU believe allah is the same god as the One True God does not make it so.
Also, are you familiar with the New Testament? I would be curious if you could cite passages in the NT that are as violent as these:
Qur’an 9.29-30
29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
30 And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

WillPower on February 4, 2007 at 6:09 pm

WillPower,
The point is that unless it can be definitively proven that God is or isn’t Allah, you are entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine.
Although Jesus himself wasn’t a violent man, the following passage does appear violent:
Matthew 10:34-36 (English Standard Version)
34″Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.
I don’t want to get bogged down in a theological debate because it never ends. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Norman Blitzer on February 4, 2007 at 10:30 pm

“The point is that unless it can be definitively proven that God is or isn’t Allah, you are entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine.”
Norm,
I agree we are both entitled to our own opinion. Perhaps, we both should qualify our statements with “in my opinion”.
The Matthew passage you quote is the one passage always cited by muslim apologists when challenged by this question. However, if you compare all of chapter 9 of the Qur’an (or all of the Qur’an) against all of Matthew chapter 10 (or all of the NT), it is clear that the Qur’an advocates violence to a much greater than the NT.

WillPower on February 4, 2007 at 11:38 pm

Abnormal Blitzed,
Maybe, for once and for all, after reading this, you’ll shut your muzlum propagandizing mouth.
Allah is NOT the God of Judaism and Christianity.
Sure, muzlums believe Jesus existed, but THEY DO NOT BELIEVE HE WAS GOD. They believe Jesus was just a prophet – not God. Mohammad conveniently co-opted all of Judaism’s prophets for his own use in inventing islam.
NOW, follow closely, you fucktard:
God, Himself, through Jesus’s words and deeds proclaimed that Jesus was the Son of God. That Jesus was indeed God. Now, 600 years after Jesus’s death and resurrection, along comes mohammad and proclaims that Jesus was NOT God, but a prophet of islam. There are two MAJOR problems with this;
1. How can God say that Jesus was God, then 600 years later say (allah by way of mohammad) that Jesus was NOT God, but just a prophet. This in and of itself would make God;
A. A liar,
B. Fallible.
2. If Jesus was in fact a prophet of islam, then how come Jesus never mentioned islam, He never mentioned mohammad, He never mentioned allah, etc? Look it up. Read the Bible and tell me where He ever mentions such things. You can say the same of ALL prophets; Moses, Abraham, etc.
You are a deceptive, lying muzlum P.O.S.!
You’re a fucktard and a complete MORON!
We know what your agenda is, you muzlum devil.

Thee_Bruno on February 5, 2007 at 5:13 pm

Thee_Bruno,
Who was Jesus’s earthly paternal grandfather?
“Do they not then ponder over the Qur-an? And had it been from anyone except Allah, they would surely have found in it a great deal of discrepancy.” (Surah An-Nisa 4:82)

Norman Blitzer on February 5, 2007 at 10:40 pm

Abnormal Blitzed can quote all the lies he wants from the qur’ an because, in reality, it doesn’t matter a twit – the qur ‘an is nothing but a book of lies, murder, mayhem, violence, misogyny, rape, pillage, and destruction. It teaches its adherents to engage in lies, deception, and instructs its men to treat women worse than animals.
In islam, women have no rights whatsoever, and Abnormal Blitzed is PROUD of it.
LMFAO!!!
What a brain-dead fucktard!
Hey, Blitzed, go blow up some innocent kid on a bus and make yourself feel better. Better yet, fly an airplane into a building while quoting mohammad.
LOL!
Fuckwad!

Thee_Bruno on February 5, 2007 at 11:33 pm

Jesus had no paternal grandfather. Only The Father.
If you wish to trace Joseph’s (Jesus’s step-father) lineage you can find it in Matthew.
A Christian cannot logically accept allah as being the same as God.
1) Christians believe Christ Jesus is the Son of God, who was sent to redeem our sins and through his grace grant us eternal life. (“But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians Chapter 15: 57) Why would God need another messenger, especially one who blasphemes by denying Christ’s divinity?
2) Why would God have a new messenger that not only blasphemes by denying Christ’s divinity, but also demands that those who are in Christ be forced to deny him?
3) Why would God demand the slaughter of the people with whom he made covenants (Jews and Christians)?
Logically, it makes no sense that Allah is God from a Christian perspective.
But, what entity would be eager to do all these things? Who blasphemes against God? Who seeks to destroy God’s children?
Revelation Chapter 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Who is the deceiver? Who uses lies to manipulate?
“…. Ibn Hazm went so far as to state that Allah is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God’s will, we would even have to practise idolatry.”
Who masquerades as an angel (or perhaps as God himself)?
2 Corinthians Chapter 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Who did the Christ warn us against?
Matthew Chapter 24
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew Chapter 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruitsÔø?.
What are the fruits of Islam? Has anyone answered the question posed by Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus?
“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”.
Islam’s answer is violence, rage and hatred. These are Islam’s fruits!

WillPower on February 5, 2007 at 11:39 pm

Hey Abnormal Blitzed, since you’re quoting from the qur’ an, let’s try some of these on for size;
Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored themóthese are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.”
Qur’an:8:73 “The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aidóthese are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”
Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ëYou shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Qur’an:9:19 “Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”
Qur’an:5:94 “Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”
Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
Qur’an:2:217 “They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: ëFighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause have the hope of Allah’s mercy.”
Qur’an:2:244 “Fight in Allah’s Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all.”
Qur’an:61:2 “O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.”
Qur’an:3:146 “How many prophets fought in Allah’s Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah’s Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors].”
Qur’an:3:153 “Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you.”
Qur’an:3:154 “Say: ëEven if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain.”
Qur’an:61:4 “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause.”
Qur’an:61:11 “Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah’s Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!” Qur’an 61:12 “He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies.”
Qur’an:8:5 “Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting).”
Qur’an:24:53 “They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah’s Cause). Say: ëSwear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.'”
Qur’an:4:74 “Let those who fight in Allah’s Cause sell this world’s life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah’s Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward.”
Qur’an:4:75 “What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah’s Cause?” [Another translation says:] “What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?”
Qur’an:4:77 “Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: ëOur Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?'”
Qur’an:4:78 “Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?”
Qur’an:4:84 “Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah’s Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you.”
Qur’an:4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ëYou are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”
Qur’an:4:95 “Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.”
Qur’an:4:100 “He who leaves his home in Allah’s Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy.”
Qur’an:4:102 “When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed comeótaking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.”
Qur’an:4:104 “And do not relent in pursuing the enemy.”
Gee…some fucking Religion of Peace…huh?
And this is what the “Prophet Jesus” said?! I think not.
But…this is the religion of Abnormal Blitzed…so we all know where that devil is coming from.
LMFAO!

Thee_Bruno on February 5, 2007 at 11:49 pm

…still beatin’ the war drum after over 1400 frickin years…get a clue…
nobody wants your frickin’ bullshit. Can you get a frickin’ clue?
Little girls don’t want your crap spiking them…
women don’t think it’s cool to have black eyes…
GoD doesn’t quit looking on Thursdays…
retarded children don’t like bein’ strapped with Allah-cide vests…
neither do donkeys…
“Submission” is the ultimate form of immoral relativism. Too many individuals interpreting each others Allah…
1400 frickin years of bullshit.
For 5,000 years the little ol’ land of Israel…ALLL alone in the Negev…
kicking all your asses.
Even with ALLL the Russian money…Syrian money…Iranian money…Egyptian money…French money…Saudi Arabian money…
I know kids who play frickin’ Super-Techmo Bowl on the frickin’ Game-Boy with more tactical prowess than the whole frickin Olive Daughter Brigades, KLA, Holy Warriors of the Holy warriors warrior brigade of the holy war for holy jihad.
I am so sick of this bullshit.
…and now, thanks to nearly the entire U.S. Federal Govt,
Sunni-Shiite bullshit is migrating stateside. …
sweet.
The frickin’ UN needs to quit shipping cash and trash , and start shipping Pre-Natal Vitamins, floride drops, pyrodoxine, thiamine, and a whooole shit ton of high quality protein your way.
Ya’ll need good nutrition as a start before most over there could even comprehend each other, let alone those east and west of alHadj, or wherever else in creation the swords have been employed. Develop the brain first, then come to our world
…then again, I could always blame the FemiNazis for “educating” western women in the ME ME ME Degree.
Nahh. They’re weak also, ya’ll deserve each other.
I do not surrender.

SickBoy on February 6, 2007 at 12:39 am

I’m going to make this as short as possible and addressing no one in particular, but as the Muslims say:”God does what God wants!” God kills people and orders people to kill whether it be in the Bible or the Koran. This is why pointing out violent passages in the Koran is an exercise in futility.
And something interesting in Revelation 22:16:
“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
As some of you know, “Lucifer” means “morning star”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#Origins_in_Isaiah
So Jesus is calling Himself the Devil, the father of lies?!? Maybe this is a clue alluded to in the Koran, Sura 5:116:
“GOD will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?’ ” He will say, “Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.”
BTW, Jesus’s grandfather in Matthew is Jacob but in Luke it’s Heli.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus
“And had it been from anyone except Allah, they would surely have found in it a great deal of discrepancy.” (Surah An-Nisa 4:82)

Norman Blitzer on February 6, 2007 at 12:55 am

Lucifer
(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for “the light of the morning” (Job 11:17), “the signs of the zodiac” (Job 38:32), and “the aurora” (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the “Exultet” of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, “to lament”; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).
from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm

WillPower on February 6, 2007 at 1:37 am

Joseph the son of a Levirate marriage?
The earliest Christian tradition to explain the existence of two genealogies is still not impossible. The tradition records a complex scenario that involves the Jewish custom of Levirate marriage. Augustine learned this tradition from Julius Africanus and accepted it as authoritative. (Eusebius of Caesaria, Church History 1:7, 6:31; Augustine of Hippo, De Consensu Evangelistarum 2.)
Christian tradition identifies a woman named Estha as the grandmother of Joseph. She married Mathan, a descendant of David through Solomon, and by him became the mother of Jacob.
However after Mathan died, she remarried and by her second husband Mathat, a descendent of David through Nathan, became the mother of Heli.
Therefore, Jacob and Heli are half-brothers who have the same mother.
Heli married, but died without children. So his widow undertook the ancient custom of a levirate marriage, and married the brother Jacob to give her children in Heli’s name. She birthed Joseph.
Therefore, Joseph is both the biological son of Jacob (from Solomon) and the legal son of Heli (from Nathan). Therefore, two genealogies have been preserved.
While being the legal son of Heli, Joseph and his mother remained in the household of Jacob, according to custom, and Joseph legally inherited from Jacob.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus#Explanations_for_discrepancies

WillPower on February 6, 2007 at 1:51 am

Actually, Revelation 22:16 in Latin reads as follows:
Revelations (Apocalypse)
16 Ego Jesus misi angelum meum testificari vobis hÔø?c in ecclesiis. Ego sum radix, et genus David, stella splendida et matutina.
Note that the word “lucifer” does not occur in this passage.

WillPower on February 6, 2007 at 2:06 am

Norman Blitzer,
YOU have really gone over the top with this one! In your desperation, you are cherry picking quotes and trying to create meaning that is not there.
I take offense at your insinuation about Christ Jesus, and your implication is ludicrous!!
Your words are blasphemous! Why are you extolling the violent “revelations” of allah, while you pervert the peaceful message of Christ?
You are treading in incredibly dangerous waters! To what end?

CarpeDiem on February 6, 2007 at 2:35 am

CarpeDiem,
Don’t waste bandwidth on Abnormal Blitzed. He’s your typical, lying, muzlum swine who bastardizes Judaism and Christianity in order to make islam look normal. Islam is not normal…it’s a death cult invented by a madman.
Abnormal Blitzed hates himself because he subscribes to a religion that glorifies murder and, as such, he is ostracized by normal, peace-loving people who prefer to live like civilized beings instead of the Neanderthal who must conquer all that he doesn’t understand.
Abnormal is a twit. He’s a degenerate, muzlum twit.

Thee_Bruno on February 6, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Thee_Bruno,
Thanks for your comments, I appreciate them!

CarpeDiem on February 6, 2007 at 3:15 pm

You’re welcome!

Thee_Bruno on February 6, 2007 at 5:04 pm

WillPower RE: Genealogy of Jesus,
The “Levirate marriage” is one possible explanation for the discrepancy, but the problem with most of those explanations is that Luke and Matthew would have had the same access to knowledge or records concerning Jesus’s genealogy and would have known about the Levirate marriage, thus mentioning it in their respective gospels. Wikipedia gives 5 explanations including the simplest and most obvious one:
“That at least one, and possibly both, of the genealogies are simply fabricated, thus explaining the divergence.”
The inherent problem with the Gospels is that much of them were written from secondary sources unlike the Koran which, for the most part, claims to be written by Muhammad directly from Allah.
As for Lucifer, there is no reason I can think of why Jesus of Revelation would choose such a self-description (i.e. the morning star) if not to leave a clue.
As for CarpeDiem and Thee_Buffoon, you guys are complete idiots and prove it everytime.

Norman Blitzer on February 6, 2007 at 5:48 pm

Norm,
You missed the point on lucifer. The word “lucifer” used in the Bible does NOT refer to Satan. It is the latin word St. Jerome used to translate the greek word ‘heosphorus’. The term ‘morning star’ in the Bible is used to describe Venus and various people, e.g. the king of Babylon. It is NEVER used to describe Satan. The connection with Satan is from St. Jerome who lived 300+ years after Christ and after the NT was written as the Septuagint. Thus, your suggestion based on the references in Peter and Revelation is logically unsustainable.
Also, since Islam claims Jesus as a major prophet, no passage in the qur’an would suggest he is Satan. Your linkage of Sura 5:116 cannot support your previous suggestion.
The ‘clue’ you see is an illusion of your bias.

WillPower on February 6, 2007 at 6:54 pm

Norm,
As with the issue of lucifer, your bias has led you astray.
As you point out, there are 5 explanations for the discrepancy between Matthew and Luke. Only one, the one you chose, suggests any fabrication. Thus, the odds are 4 to 1 that the discrepancy is reasonable.
Also, on what basis do you assume that Matthew and Luke had access to the same materials? Matthew (Levi) was Jewish and an apostle, while Luke is a gentile convert.
Your criticism of secondary sources is unfounded. Four secondary sources which tell essentially the same story could be more accurate than a single original. Remember the premise of Rushdie’s ‘Satanic Verses’ was that Mo was illiterate and the scribe would change the words spoken to him to see if he noticed, which Mo did not. Also, I note you use the word ‘claims’ in regard to the qur’an. The Gospels have been subjected to, and withstood, much more critical examination than the qur’an ever has.
By the way, do you consider the Torah to be a direct or secondary source?

WillPower on February 6, 2007 at 7:19 pm

WillPower, you’re quoting parts of Wikipedia which I’ve already read and neglecting others.
The point you seem to be missing is that it doesn’t make any sense for Jesus of Revelation to call himself “morning star” knowing full well that it can be interpreted as Lucifer. I don’t think the Jesus of the Gospels ever called Himself “the morning star”, did he? Perhaps the Jesus of Revelation wasn’t Jesus after all.
And the point of Sura 5:116 was to show that Jesus contradicts his divinity not only in the Bible but in the Koran as well. There are many instances in the Bible where he says that he’s not God. For example:
Mark 10:18 (King James Version)
“And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”
[Your criticism of secondary sources is unfounded. Four secondary sources which tell essentially the same story could be more accurate than a single original.]
Except this is not the case in the Gospels. Matthew and Luke are the only Gospels that deal with Jesus’s origins and they give almost completely different accounts:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%201-2;&version=9;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%201-3;&version=9;
[Also, on what basis do you assume that Matthew and Luke had access to the same materials? Matthew (Levi) was Jewish and an apostle, while Luke is a gentile convert.]
First off, scholars are unsure of the background of the Gospel writers. Some say the Gospel of Matthew was written by the apostle, scholars think it was a different Matthew.
If Matthew and Luke were researching and writing the true genealogy and origins of Jesus, they would both have to investigate similar sources. Perhaps one was able to get information from people who actually knew Jesus but both would have to seek out some record of Jesus’s geneaology, whether in the oral or written tradition that existed at that time. Both would have known about Levirate marriage. But if both were inspired by God to write the Gospels, then there should be no discrepancy between them concerning Jesus’s geneaology and origins.
And getting back to the Lucifer issue, Matthew calls Jesus “Emmanuel” to fulfill scripture, yet the names mean slightly different things (i.e. God saves and God is with us). If such a stretch can be made, again how can Jesus, who is all knowing, call himself “the morning star” when it can easily be interpreted as Lucifer? It just doesn’t make any sense.
[By the way, do you consider the Torah to be a direct or secondary source?]
I would call the Torah a secondary source because although many believe Moses wrote it, most scholars believe that it was written and rewritten by groups over many centuries which include the Priestly Source (P), and the Jahwist-Elohist source (JE). And of course there’s a ton of evidence to suggest many of the Torah’s stories come from Babylonian sources. For example, the laws of Exodus appear to be very similar to Hammarabi’s code.
Look, WillPower, you’re going to defend your beliefs at all costs and Muslims will defend their beliefs at all costs. This is going nowhere. In the end what Jews, Christians and Muslims must agree on is to show respect to each others religions and to each other.

Norman Blitzer on February 6, 2007 at 10:48 pm

Norm,
1) Since you say Jesus calls himself ‘morning star’ in Revelation, which was written by John, are you accepting that this book is in fact a true revelation? Are you admitting that Jesus revealed something about Himself to John after his death? Are you admitting that Jesus is not simply human, but perhaps divine? If not, why do you say Jesus ‘calls himself’ morning star? In that case wouldn’t John be the one calling him morning star?
2) Since the term lucifer as related to satan did not exist until after 300 AD and Jesus ‘calls himself’ morning star in Revelations which was written before 100 AD, you are suggesting that Jesus is a divine being. How else would He know what would happen 200 years in the future? Satan is not omniscient, only God is. For Jesus to be able to give John revelations of the future, He must be divine.
3) It does make sense for Jesus to call himself ‘morning star’. Spiritually, Jesus is the light and the world is in darkness. Jesus’s appearance is the first light for the world, just as the morning star is the first light of dawn. This is a case of Jesus using symbology. It is not the literal use you make it.
4) Of course muslims deny Christ’s divinity, otherwise he would be superior to Mo. Such a passage from the qur’an proves nothing other than the muslims’ disrespect of Christians. The Mark passage you cite is hardly a denial of his divinity. There are many more where he affirms it. Such as,
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
Matthew 16:16-17
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
5) I agree each religion will defend their beliefs strenuously, as they should. I do NOT agree that each “must” respect the others beliefs. The fact that islam does deny the divinity of Christ certainly does not show respect to Christianity. Proclaiming non-muslims as infidels who must be killed or forced into submission does not show respect to other religions. I would be willing to respect islam when they show respect for other religions. Until then, I will consider islam a satanic cult.

WillPower on February 7, 2007 at 2:01 am

[I would be willing to respect islam when they show respect for other religions. Until then, I will consider islam a satanic cult.]
I have no problem with this. I think this is a good note to end on.

Norman Blitzer on February 7, 2007 at 2:24 am

Debbie, I’ve not read the comments. I came straight from Michelle Malkin’s site.
As a Rush AND Sean listener, I’m disappointed in Sean. Rush gives you full credit often. I don’t know if Sean has too much “on his plate”, or if he’s becoming to full of himself. Either way, I’m disappointed in him. I first sent this to Sean from his website, and then I sent it to Rush at 24/7 asking him to admonish his accolyte;
“Sean, I think you have some explaining to do! Rush gives Debbie credit, why haven’t you? I know there are two sides to every story, so let’s hear your side to this one!
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2007/02/08/what-about-intellectual-property-rights-sean-hannity/trackback/
In the meantime, SHAME ON YOU!”
The drive-by media does not hold their contributors to account, we have got to hold ours on the RIGHT to account.

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