I think you’re talking about the gov. their perfidy and betrayal. NOT the People.
Same thing is happening worldwide. In Canada, Scandia, Thailand, the U.S., Australia.
In the desperation of the powers that be to continue ruling, one way or the other, they’ve joined with the khalifa- to share in the power.
Now the only ones on the fence – people starting to wake up is: France? – Germany? – Spain? – one other – I can’t remember – oh, yeah, Brit. taking signatures against the “grand” mosque.
The U.S., here, is sawing logs.

allat on July 16, 2007 at 4:36 pm

From what I know, the Dutch are very anti-muslim. I wouldn’t sell out an entire country over the hysterical rantings of one stupid broad.

LoveAManInAUniform on July 16, 2007 at 5:31 pm

The trouble with warnings, no matter how logical and clearly articulated, is that they are so easily dismissed (can you say “Hitler”, boys and girls? I’ll bet you can).
The real test of European resolve to remain secular is still to come. Sharia law is yet to become official (and yes, I’m aware of that idiot judge in Germany). As soon as they realize that they truly will be expected to live under Muslim law we will see if they have the fortitude to say no.
BTW, I always thought it was dar as-salam (the abode of peace – as in the capital city of Tanzania).

stevecanuck on July 16, 2007 at 6:09 pm

As an optimist, I like to think that Herbert Meyer has it right in this article.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/07/the_war_about_the_war.html
The same dynamic might hold for the Brits and French, and possibly even the Dutch.

WillPower on July 16, 2007 at 6:10 pm

I have been hosting a woman from “The Netherlands” for the past 1.5 months. She told me that “I am not from Holland. I am neither a druggie or a prostitute”. So, you may want to change the title of your article. The folks in the Southwest part of “The Netherlands” would appreciate not being lumped in with the crazies (loud and crude crazies by the way) up in Amsterdam.
She has told me that they are very mindful of the Muslim menace. Also, they do have legislation in place (her mom teaches these classes) that require that an immigrant LEARN Dutch in order to qualify for citizenship. What a thought!

sayno2fat on July 16, 2007 at 6:10 pm

LoveAMan: I hope you’re right, but you might want to read Bruce Bawer’s “While Europe Slept” — a real eye-opener (written by a gay liberal, no less, not a rabid conservative). While the Nederlanders (auf Deutsch) and many others are aborting/euthanizing/suiciding themselves out of existence, unrestricted immigration of Muslims, and their entire extended families, plus a birth-rate of something like one child per woman per annum for her entire reproductive life, has allowed and is allowing the immigrants to rapidly out-reproduce the native Europeans at an astonishing rate. “Eurabia” is no longer a joke (“Aw, it’ll never happen!”), but a grim reality.
Yeah, it may be just one stupid broad, but she speaks for untold thousands of Hollanders who, it appears, are genuinely “sound asleep at the wheel,” and more than willing to meekly submit to Islamification and all the wonderful things that will bring — just too much trouble to “fight back.”

theendisnear on July 16, 2007 at 6:16 pm

Are you sure about the Dutch rate of Jew-killing during WWII? I would have thought Poland was second after Germany. Amsterdam is a cesspool anyhow, isn’t it? You won’t find me there.

lexi on July 16, 2007 at 10:22 pm

I’m almost glad to see those liberals get what they deserve.

ECW on July 16, 2007 at 11:31 pm

The ABC islands are part of the Netherlands. If the Netherlands falls that puts an Islamic country right here in the northern hemisphere.

Waycross on July 16, 2007 at 11:51 pm

Amsterdam and Rotterdam are approaching Majority Muslim populations. The gays in Amsterdam seem to be getting edgy since the Muslims are now beating them up and robbing them. All that live and let live, different strokes for different folks, everybody is welcome hasn’t gone too well. But the barndoor has been open for far too long and the barbarians are well entrenched. THe latest estimates I have heard is that the Muslim % is more like 15%, not the 10% reported. mmmm, kinda like that 12 million illegal aliens is more like 30 million but no one wants to admit that.
Denmark is fighting back, Poland and the Czech Republic have very few Muslims, like 1%, but Italy, France, the Scandanavian countries, France, Germany, Spain, the Muslims are reaching critical mass which starts around 10%. That’s when they ratchet up the game. I am sure they are ecstatic how the Eurodhimwits and their infidel govts are not surrending, but expediting their destruction, financing the Muslims with welfare and all kinds of govt goodies. Look at the US – we actually are accelerating our importation of Muslims at govt expense. The Justice dept is actively pursuing cases to protect Muslims; did you know that the EEOC is leading the Muslim veil lawsuits filed against companies? True. Dhimmis rule for now.

John Sobieski on July 17, 2007 at 12:20 am

Why the dutch let muslim filth in to begin with defies logic.

Muslims Are Vermin on July 17, 2007 at 1:17 am

Just correcting some factual inacuracies.
Regarding the original article the phrase ìHolland a.k.a. The Netherlandsî is factually incorrect. North & South Holland are two provinces within the Netherlands, but that is all. Zeeland and Friesland for instance are also provinces.
Secondly Debbie, you correspondent ëArií has Iím afraid been lying to you. I’ve just read the article, and at no point in the interview does Vogelaar say that the Netherlands will become an Islamic state. What she does say (which is completely obvious to all) is that Islam is not going away, and thus in the long-term
ìÖthe Netherlands can be described as a land with a Jewish-Christian-Islamic tradition.î
You also say ìShe feels that The Netherlands should adapt to Islam, and subsidise Islamic institutions.”
Again, she says nothing of the sort. What she actually says is;
ìIt is important that such a large group root themselves in our society and become a permanent part.î
So sheís calling for Muslims to better integrate themselves into our society. Again, nothing new.
Moving on to the deeply irrelevant, you say;
ìI add only that the Netherlands long ago legalized euthanasia.î
Having worked in hospitals in three countries for 20 years, I can sure you that every country in the Western world utilizes Euthanasia in ending suffering of terminally ill patients. America uses the same system as the UK, in giving the patient a heroin overdose. All the Netherlands have done is put this process onto a solid legal platform, which protects the patients rights and dignity.
**
John Sibieski there are so many untruths in your response that it is difficult to know where to start.
ìAmsterdam and Rotterdam are approaching Majority Muslim populations.î
No sorry, not even close.
The Muslim population of the Netherlands is 4.4%, compared to 31% Catholic 21% Protestant and 40% Atheist. The rate of Muslims in the Randstad (Amsterdam/Den Haag/ Rotterdam is 8.5%. I know you rednecks have a problem with math, but if you canít tell the difference between 8.5 & 51, your problems are greater than I can help you with.
**
ìThe gays in Amsterdam seem to be getting edgy since the Muslims are now beating them up and robbing them.î
Well no, there have been a few incidents of gays being beaten up in Amsterdam. BUT, firstly the problem lies specifically with Moroccan youths, rather than with Muslim youth, in that there are no Turkish kids involved. There is a specific problem with criminality amongst first generation kids of Moroccan decent, but itís not per se a Muslim thing. The criminality amongst Turkish youth is the lowest amongst all the major social groups.
Secondly, not all those involved in beating up gays have been Muslim. The leaders of the Gay community in Amsterdam have cited the rise of Evangelical Christianism as a contributing cause of homophobia.
In particular the extreme-right evangelical party the SGP has a very anti-gay stance. They also want to remove womenís suffrage because (get this) ìGod didnít intend for women to make important decisions.î Now if this was a small, fringe party that wouldnít be anything to worry about. But the SGP has the largest youth organization of any political party in Nederland.
So if you are at all concerned about the future of civil rights in the Netherlands, itís the Christianists you should be worried about.

No Pasaran! on July 17, 2007 at 4:56 am

Clogistan?
Sobieski saved Europe.
Pasaran, you know better than to spin the Islamic dogma of supremecy. Hmm, a medical professional…blaming the Christians…hmm…When did you immigrate from London? Austrailia? Detroit?
Glasgow?

Nuggler on July 17, 2007 at 7:22 am

“When did you immigrate from London? Austrailia? (sic) Detroit?”
How could I ‘immigrate from’ anywhere?
Don’t you mean emigrate?
English isn’t even my first language, yet I appear to have a better understanding of it than you. The rest of your post is complete gibberish, I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I’m sorry if my pointing out factual errors makes you so uncomfortable.

No Pasaran! on July 17, 2007 at 7:50 am

Like a herd of frogs slowly being brought to a boil, our European leaders and politicians have lost the capacity to detect any personal danger to themsleves and to the nation. Some may perhaps scoff that “Europe doesn’t face any such predicament, and if immigration to Europe has indeed problems, it certainly doesn’t resemble a “hegemony” of sorts”. Supposedly, those of us who are sounding the alarm are just chasing phantoms and ghosts.
I beg to differ. Looking at the history of Islamic imperialism, you begin to see a very old pattern emerging in Europe –coordinated and intentional, as well as being natural in design– of Islam resuming its old hegemonic habits of biting and chewing away at a piece of Europe at a time, until it either submitted or sued for accommodation, with unchecked immigration being the price for good relations. Unfortunately, many European state’s can now be defined as having chosen to subscribe to the latter, with the Dutch Minister’s admittance of the inevitable, as being proof of the ongoing collective siege.
This has all been a natural part of the Islamization process, helped along by a willing Europe –that has for the most part– long abandoned its own religious identity, sacrificed its youth and future generations through a dismally low birth rate while seeking to secure its future oil supplies with the oil producing Arab/Muslim World. The combination of all these phenomenons have been devastating to Europe. The question that remains now, is just how much longer before Europe becomes “Dar al islam”?

kgs59 on July 17, 2007 at 8:03 am

“Unfortunately, many European state’s can now be defined as having chosen to subscribe to the latter, with the Dutch Minister’s admittance of the inevitable, as being proof of the ongoing collective siege.’
So the fact that this Dutch minister said absolutely no such thing is not a problem for you at all?
It’s like with you people, facts are irrelevant, you don’t allow them to get in the way of a good racist diatribe.
But as somebody recently said, “reality has a known Liberal bias.”

No Pasaran! on July 17, 2007 at 8:29 am

No Pasaron!– what IS your first language? Seems to me what YOU write is gibberish. Your defense of Muslims AKA Islamofascists is perplexing. What are you doing in the US? Are you even in the US? Are you or are you not a Muslim?

lexi on July 17, 2007 at 12:29 pm

Everyone needs to calm down. Islam is a threat to liberty wherever it raises its head (as are a number of other movements – religious and secular), but all things must be addressed by fact, logic and the witness of history.
I agree that there is a disturbing level of (willful) ignorance in Europe concerning the threat of Islam. However, we will never raise their level of awareness through shrill mockery of those we hope to enlighten.
These attacks may make us feel clever and puffed-up, but we’re not going to win any converts taking quotes out-of-context (or by manufacturing them). This is the “Hannitization” of the Right. That is, think yourself witty and glib as you convince no one to your position.
John Adams said “Facts are stubborn things.” He was right and facts can speak for themselves. We must not get caught up in “nutty” witicisms and exaggerations that convince no one except the already converted.

bleechers on July 17, 2007 at 12:35 pm

“No Pasaron!– what IS your first language?”
Dutch. I would have thought that was obvious.
“Seems to me what YOU write is gibberish. Your defense of Muslims AKA Islamofascists is perplexing.”
I’m sorry if I perplex you, but for the record I wasn’t defending Islam, I was simply defending the truth. The Dutch minister simply DID NOT SAY that the Netherlands wil one day be a Muslim country. It’s as simple as that.
It’s like you are getting upset with me for saying 2 + 2 = 4.
“What are you doing in the US? Are you even in the US? ”
I’m not in the US, I’m nowhere near the US, I’m in Amsterdam, the Capital city of North Holland which is also the Capital city of the Netherlands. This will probably astonish you, Lexi – but the US is not the only country that has access to computers and the internet.
“Are you or are you not a Muslim?”
I’m not a Muslim, I’m an Atheist, like pretty much everybody I know.
That’s what’s so bizare about this thread. People like Sibieski are posting things about the city where I live that I know to be false. He says that the Islamic population of Amsterdam is approaching a majority. A ‘fact’ I know to be false – because I see every day when I walk down the street, catch a tram or go to the supermarket, that way less than 10% of the people I see are Muslim.
Can’t you see how arrogant that is?
Imagine if I was to post that “the number of people in Detroit with red hair is approaching a majority.” Despite the fact that I’ve never been to Detroit in my entire life, and you could see that that is plainly not so.
That’s how ridiculous some of you are making yourself look by posting this rubbish, and why nobody will take you seriously until you stop doing it. Start to post about what you know about, and just stick to that. Then people won’t believe you to be madmen.

No Pasaran! on July 17, 2007 at 1:02 pm

My land was acquired by Andrew Jackson. As he was driving the Indians out, he attacked the Spaniards, just to be an MAJOR ASSHOLE. PC cowards in Washington wanted him censured! Sec. of State Van Buren, later President, said ‘no’. He bargained Florida away from the weak Spaniards, they couldn’t control it anyway and were allowing Britain to ship arms to the Indians to use against us.
You are either meaner than the other guy and you take the land, or THE OTHER GUY WILL TAKE IT FROM YOU. All countries are built by killing people, not by cooperating with them.

steve ventry on July 17, 2007 at 1:31 pm

No Pasaran, you are going to be astonished by the mathematical properties of people who have 6 kids apiece. In 20 years, you’re neighborhood will be unrecognizable. That’s what happened in Mississippi when certain people were paid to have 5 and 6 kids apiece, starting in 1965. I hope you enjoy being the only White boy on your block.

steve ventry on July 17, 2007 at 1:45 pm

DIdn’t think wuz Inglize 101. Jibberish A Arabic term meaning “untranslatable”? Or is that “the translation” as in Algebra? To leave/to arrive/migrate is irrelavent. Nyther is spullun on dis blogg. Truth is pure and clear. A certain clarity n’est pas? Spinnin it ain’t gonna change nuthin. Prithy wiseone, enlighten us with your wizdumb…
Will you wave the orange flag when the new Caliph parades?
What is the Arabic word for “chocolate”? Inti tarif Arabe? La?

Nuggler on July 17, 2007 at 2:04 pm

oopz, it should say, “inte tarife” for the masculine. Or “Inti tarfi” for the feminine.

Nuggler on July 17, 2007 at 2:07 pm

The problem remains in the original. The woman is not actually quoted. We are given only someone’s assessment without a reference. The source should have been checked. She may be guilty of “pandering,” but to draw that out to be submission or capitulation is not warrented.
Her comments reveal a lack of concern, but let’s deal with that and not with innuendo. If someone has a quote that is the equivalent to capitulation, let’s see it. But just writing that she “declared in an interview” without any text from said interview is not sufficient.
If there was language that could be interpreted to cause alarm, let’s have the quote along with the analysis, but analysis based only on inferred beliefs is not worthy of this site. i think Debbie was duped in this case.

bleechers on July 17, 2007 at 2:23 pm

You have to feel sorry for nuggler.

No Pasaran! on July 17, 2007 at 4:44 pm

Here is part of the Minister’s speech in Dutch and as translated by an online translator.
**De minister maakt een vergelijking met de inbreng van de joodse gemeenschap in de Nederlandse cultuur. Ôø?Eeuwen geleden kwam de joodse gemeenschap naar Nederland en nu zeggen we: Nederland is een land dat is gevormd door joods-christelijke tradities. Ik kan me voorstellen dat we een vergelijkbaar proces krijgen met de islam.Ôø?**
**The minister makes a comparison with the contribution of the Jewish community in the Dutch culture. “Centuries ago came the Jewish community to the Netherlands and now say we: The netherlands is a country has been formed that by Jewish-Christian traditions. I can me propose that we a comparable trial get with the islam.”**
Decide for yourself.

WillPower on July 17, 2007 at 5:15 pm

If you can read Dutch or have a translator, here’s a link to one story on this.
http://www.trouw.nl/hetnieuws/nederland/article750243.ece/Vogelaar_Islam_wordt_deel_van_onze_cultuur

WillPower on July 17, 2007 at 5:18 pm

Save your pity for your countrymen. Islam means Submission.
Oh, how ’bout, “No Pasaran to Islam!”
never quit, never surrender.

Nuggler on July 17, 2007 at 5:33 pm

WillPower thanks for backing up my side of the story, I’m glad to see that there are at least a couple of posters here with common sense.
After reading both the clumbsy machine translation and my excellent translation I think even the attack-dogs will now have to concede that the Minister did not say what she is alleged to have said. I expect that Debbie will be editing her initial story shortly.
Nuggler, far be it for me as an atheist to defend Islam – all religions are equally idiotic for the rather obvious reason that there is no such thing as god. But Islam does not mean ‘submission’ it means ‘submit to the will of god’. Which of course is what is required from the followers of all religions. This of course is one of the many reasons that so many Europeans are turning to Atheism. It’s not Islam that is the growing force in Europe it is Atheism (80% of all Swedes are now Atheists for instance). This is because we are reaching a level of sophistication in Europe where we no longer have to live our lives based on the tennents of children’s fairy-tales.
Here’s something else to think about Nuggler. Your position is only tennable if you utilise lies. The lie that the Minister said that Nederland will become a Muslim land (which I have disproved) the lie that the number of Muslims in Amsterdam is approaching a majority (which I have disproved. The lie that the Mulsim birth-rate is massively higher than the Dutch birth rate (in fact the Mulsim birth-rate in N.L. is falling rapidly and is now approaching the levels of the Dutch population). And so on and so on.
Your idiotic macho posturing will not allow you to concede that I am right, but in your heart-of-hearts I believe you know that I am. Islam is never going to take over Europe, there are simply not enough Muslims, there never will be enough Muslims, and they are not interested in taking over Europe anyway.

No Pasaran! on July 18, 2007 at 4:15 am

Joep, machismo has nothing to do with it. Even if something isn’t physically said, everything is subject to context. For example, if someone asked you, “How do you feel?” Does one answer, “I feel with my phalanges,” or, “I feel well”? However “excellent” your translation was, your arrogance betrays truth. Furthermore, your “childish” commentary is, well, childish. Where combat is required by the Mujahadeen, combat is employed. Where legislation and coersion is required, those tactics are employed etc. C’mon “Doc,” apologetics aside, Marx and Trotsky are dead. Is Islam really a religion of “Peace”? I mean, that’s what they all say no? Have “faith” in your diagnosis of the ailment based on the symptoms; do you only listen to the patients subjectivity? Remember, the SOAP approach when treating the whole patient. The patient {Europe} has shifted to the left (please translate what I just said;))

Nuggler on July 18, 2007 at 1:14 pm

There are no such things as religions of peace. All religions rely on hatred to function. That’s why when a Tsunami rips a baby out of a mother’s arms it’s called “God’s will”.
“The patient (Europe) has shifted to the Left.”
Indeed it has, nuggler indeed it has, which is why your arguments are so idiotic. You have rightly identified Islamism as a kind of fascism. Europe has swung further to the left, so ergo, this new left-wing Europe is hardly likely to stand-by and do nothing while fascist Islamism “seeks to take control of Europe” – now is it?
{You see that? I just did me some of that Socialist dialectic.]
By the way, I work in Advertising, so your medical anaologies are as irrelevant as they are dumb and humourless.

No Pasaran! on July 18, 2007 at 2:03 pm

Joep Joep,
Shift to the left translates to worsening, possible malignancy…death. Advertising eh? Whoa. Did you work on the branding for the NWSP? Wave that orange flag for us when the Caliph arrives mmm kay. Thanks.
The next click on the “ism” clock after socialism is communism. Send me a postcard from the education camps.

Nuggler on July 18, 2007 at 6:02 pm

Pasaran, where have non-muslims displaced muslims? All I see are muslims spreading into non-muslim countries, driving out Christians and Jews, and turning them into Muslim countries. I don’t see ANY ‘diversity’ among muslims.

steve ventry on July 18, 2007 at 10:59 pm

Nuggler, I’ve no clue what you are trying to say. Your knowledge of politics is clearly as shallow as your knowledge of comparative religion. Your suggestion that Democratic Socialism automaticaly leads to Communism is too stupid to respond to.
BTW, the Dutch flag is not orange, it’s red, white and blue.
Moving on.
“All I see are muslims spreading into non-muslim countries, driving out Christians and Jews, and turning them into Muslim countries.”
Mr. Ventry, I’m guessing you’ve never been outside the USA in your entire life. If you had ever visited us here in civilization, you would know that this is just hysterical nonsense. The Muslims are not “driving out” Christians & Jews as you put it. The Muslim population of the Netherlands is 4.5%, that means that 95.5% of the population are not Islamic. Immigration to Europe is now heavily restricted and the birth-rate amongst Muslims is now falling rapidly towards the European norms. In what way could that constitute ‘driving out’ Christians?
The problem here is that because Americans are so ignorant of Europe and it’s people, that extremists are able to exploit this ignorance to paint a picture of Islamic tyranny taking over Europe. This has never happened, it is not happening now, and it will never happen in the future.
If you had ever been here, you would know.

No Pasaran! on July 19, 2007 at 4:11 am

“Nuggler, I’ve no clue what you are trying to say. Your knowledge of politics is clearly as shallow as your knowledge of comparative religion. Your suggestion
that Democratic Socialism automaticaly leads to Communism is too stupid to respond to.
BTW, the Dutch flag is not orange, it’s red, white and blue.”
Joep,
Allow me to provide an “excellent” translation:
You assert militant atheistic apologetics…”All the world’s problems are due to the ‘religious’ people. In particular, traditional Christian and Jewish values.” Your Socialist views, however “well intended” are weak and unable to be supported with historical accuracies, not to mention the high costs of it’s administration. I have not “said” the Dutch will end up as Communists. Socialism ALWAYS preceeds Communism. Communism is worship of the “state.” Islam is more than just worshipping good ol’ “Allah.” Islam is pure theocracy. It is the perfect vehicle for oppression and tyranny versus an open and free society. Your country is compromised by “good intentions.”Just admit it, you detest the United States. Admit that you detest anything which has allowed you, and your fellow NWSP practitioners, the safety for expression.
Comparative analysis assignment: Socialism/Communism -vs- Submission.
What’s to compare anyway? Choose life.
P.S. This is an open forum of electrons, not a dissertation.
Go on Prince of Orange, revolt…”No Pasaran!”
*click clack click clack click*

Nuggler on July 19, 2007 at 7:15 am

Parasan, that’s completely untrue. Muslims have driven out Christians and/or Jews, and/or Hindus, etc, in Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Northern Africa, India, Pakistan…let’s skip over to Southeast Asia in Indonesia, Malaysia, on up to southern Phillipines, I forgot the Caucasus’, don’t even mention southern Europe before they were driven back out by real men…And even if you’re 4.5% figure is true, which I doubt, that’s huge! Instead of insulting people, perhaps you can answer the question, where are non-muslims displacing muslims? Or perhaps you can’t.

steve ventry on July 19, 2007 at 10:02 am

There are 600,000 muslims in London. The NUMBER ONE name in England is now ‘Mohammed’. If that’s not an invasion, I’d like to know what is.

steve ventry on July 19, 2007 at 10:04 am

“The NUMBER ONE name in England is now ‘Mohammed’. If that’s not an invasion, I’d like to know what is.”
NO IT IS NOT.
It’s the number 23 most common name in London, up one place from last year.
That’s what’s frightening, that you people are so naive you believe all this nonsense.
Forthe record the number one boys name in London is Jack, followed by Henry.
The countries you have listed have been Muslim for a 1000 years, so your point is idiotic as usual. What about the Christians invading Africa, India, most of Asia, and NORTH AMERICA and imposing there Christian religion on the people there?
Doesn’t that count?
No religion in the history of man has done so much to driving other religions out, as Christianity.

No Pasaran! on July 19, 2007 at 10:46 am

Just 7.5% of Londonís population are Muslim, according to my math, that leaves 92.5% that are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_London
Here are the boys names stats, that give the lie to you previous statement.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/fnames1206.pdf
**
Nuggler, I’m not sure what drugs you are on, but they must be very powerful.
You assert militant atheistic apologetics…”All the world’s problems are due to the ‘religious’ people. In particular, traditional Christian and Jewish values.”
Of course, I said no such thing.
“Your Socialist views, however “well intended” are weak and unable to be supported with historical accuracies, not to mention the high costs of it’s administration. ”
I’ve no clue what this paragraph is supposed to mean.
**
“I have not “said” the Dutch will end up as Communists. ”
Yes you did.
**
“Socialism ALWAYS preceeds Communism. Communism is worship of the “state.” ”
No it is worship of the lack of state.
**
“Islam is more than just worshipping good ol’ “Allah.” Islam is pure theocracy. It is the perfect vehicle for oppression and tyranny versus an open and free society. ”
I agree.
**
“Your country is compromised by “good intentions.”Just admit it, you detest the United States.”
Actually I don’t. My wife is American, my children are dual citizens and I always have a nice time when I visit. I wouldn’t want to stay longer than 2 – 3 weeks, but I don’t detest it.
**
“Admit that you detest anything which has allowed you, and your fellow NWSP practitioners, the safety for expression. ”
I’ve no clue what this means.
**
“Comparative analysis assignment: Socialism/Communism -vs- Submission.
What’s to compare anyway? Choose life.
P.S. This is an open forum of electrons, not a dissertation.
Go on Prince of Orange, revolt…”No Pasaran!”
*click clack click clack click*”
Like I say, very powerful drugs, I’d suggest you re-visit your shrink – get the dose changed.

No Pasaran! on July 19, 2007 at 11:09 am

Joep,
“Say Good-Bye to Holland, Dar Al-Islam”
Need a translation?
Seek the Rosetta Stone.
P.S. I suggest you brush up on your history of the 16th century, and who ruled over Holland, then you’ll see the inferences I drew before you spiraled downward into ad hominim attax. Obviously, you can read between the lines.
How’s that branding goin’? Wasn’t orange eh?
Ma salaami Joep.

Nuggler on July 19, 2007 at 12:30 pm

I’ll take that as an admission of defeat on your part, you clearly have nothing left to say. I’ve shot down your every argument, and you have nothing left but weak attempts at ‘humour’.

No Pasaran! on July 19, 2007 at 2:16 pm

Dear No Pasaran!,
Iíve really enjoyed reading your European perspective of the impact of Muslim immigrants on the Netherlands. But I have a question for you: You state that it is likely that Europeís left-leaning societies, who would be naturally ideologically opposed to tenets of Islamic theocracy, would not allow for its political ascendancy or at least supremacy. How do you believe they would prevent it, and when?
More than the specific accuracy of the Dutch ministerís statements, the concern of the original author of the report (from the blog ìDutch Concernsî) as well as those posting here, is the approach sheís taken. Rather than try to foster ways to integrate Muslim immigrants into Dutch society and culture, it seems (even from your translation) that she is trying to reconcile people to the fact that there will be a new society. Will this new society be better, different certainly, but better? I donít think so.
You quote a 4.5% Muslim population in the Netherlands, but other statistics show a percentage closer to 7%. In any event, what weíve found in this country is that when you come to a density of one particular immigrant group approaching 15% of population, and reaching a plurality in certain regions, you reach a critical mass of persons that does not necessarily want to integrate. Why? Because they do not have to do so in order to live their lives (shop, eat, bank, work). You then become a nation with foreign settlements.
This is the frustration that people posting here, like myself, feel about foreign nationals settling in our country and making demands on its natives and government. European nations are facing the same; with Muslim immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and South Asia importing a violent, hate-filled, and misogynistic culture (a culture informed and empowered by their religion)
This isnít about chest-thumping. You donít need to be a xenophobic draconian responder to these matters and ìship them all outî. I think readers here though are incredulous at the European approach of a cultural surrender.
However, Iíve enjoyed your thoughtful and humorous writing, and remained impressed with the mastery so many Europeans have of English and other second languages. Good luck in the Netherlands, but I fear by the time your societies wake up to what is in your midst, it will be too late.

Staypositive on July 19, 2007 at 4:55 pm

ìYou state that it is likely that Europeís left-leaning societies, who would be naturally ideologically opposed to tenets of Islamic theocracy, would not allow for its political ascendancy or at least supremacy. How do you believe they would prevent it, and when?î
Firstly, I think the potential problem has been exaggerated. Itís true that the Saudi government has spent billions of Rials exporting itís ultra-conservative Wahabbiist to Western Europe, but the fact that less than 200 women in the entire Netherlands wear the Abaya or the Burkha would suggest that they have not been all that successful. As for how we plan to prevent the political ascendancy of Islamism, Iíd say we already are. Perhaps your question would be better be phrased ìHow would the Islamists take over the Netherlands?î How would they do it? How can 4.5% of the population take over a country? Hold a vote while we were not looking? Wait until we were all on vacation in Marbella and hold a snap election? Itís just ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the notion that the average leftist/atheist Dutch person is simply going to stand by and allow their liberal traditions to be hijacked by a tiny minority of conservatives. (Not to smear all Muslims with the ëconservativeí label, I know several good, liberal, left-leaning Muslims.)
**
ìMore than the specific accuracy of the Dutch ministerís statements, the concern of the original author of the report (from the blog ìDutch Concernsî) as well as those posting here is the approach sheís taken. Rather than try to foster ways to integrate Muslim immigrants into Dutch society and culture, it seems (even from your translation) that she is trying to reconcile people to the fact that there will be a new society. Will this new society be better, different certainly, but better? I donít think so.î
I think trying to foster ways of integrating Muslims is exactly what she was doing. Integration doe not happen over night, it takes several generations. Dutch people I know who have emigrated to Australia still drink in Dutch themed bars, have their own Dutch language newspaper and websites, and socialize with other cloggies. They are not assimilated into Australian society, but their children will be, and their grand-children more so. And so it goes. The minister made the point that the Netherlands assimilated tens of thousands of Portuguese Jews, and over time Dutch society changed from a Christian to a Judao-Christian tradition. Muslims will now always be part of our society, and their influence will gradually alter the course of Dutch society ñ and thatís a good thing. Societyís are like sharks, they need to be moving forward, or they die.
**
ìYou quote a 4.5% Muslim population in the Netherlands, but other statistics show a percentage closer to 7%. In any event, what weíve found in this country is that when you come to a density of one particular immigrant group approaching 15% of population, and reaching a plurality in certain regions, you reach a critical mass of persons that does not necessarily want to integrate. Why? Because they do not have to do so in order to live their lives (shop, eat, bank, work). You then become a nation with foreign settlements.î
Well firstly, those stats of yours are just plain wrong. Though the statistics for the major cities in the Randstad are close to that figure.
Integration is a two-way process; you cannot integrate with a society that does not want to be integrated with. Every time I hear someone asking why Muslims donít integrate, I ask them if they ever socialize with Muslims, or invite them round to their house, or would they let their daughter date a Muslim? The response is invariably ëNoí.
Hypocrisy of the first order.
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ìThis is the frustration that people posting here, like myself, feel about foreign nationals settling in our country and making demands on its natives and government.î
But pretty much everyone in your country is descended from foreign nationals, arenít they? I though the whole point of America was that itís a place where oppressed and dispossessed peopleís can go and their voices would be heard?
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ìEuropean nations are facing the same; with Muslim immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and South Asia importing a violent, hate-filled, and misogynistic culture (a culture informed and empowered by their religion).î
Islamic culture is not ëa violent, hate-filled, and misogynisticí culture. Islamism, Political Islamism and Wahabbism are all of those things, but again I would stress that their influence has been exaggerated by elements of the media and right-wing politicians. There are relatively few extremists here; those that are seem to be motivated by ësecond-generation syndromeí rather than a belief in holy war.
One of the real problems until recently was that moderate, urbane; Muslims didnít take the extremists seriously. I would talk regularly to the Pakistani guys in my cricket team about Islamic Militancy, and there response would invariably be ìOh, those nutcases, who cares what they think? We donít take them seriously, why should you?î Now, just this last year or two they are starting to appreciate that even a tiny minority can do some damage to the image of Muslims and make their lives more difficult. I think you will see a real change in the response of real Muslims towards the militants from now on.
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ìThis isnít about chest-thumping. You donít need to be a xenophobic draconian responder to these matters and ìship them all outî. I think readers here though are incredulous at the European approach of a cultural surrender.î
But clearly there is no such cultural surrender, itís a myth that fails to stand up to even the briefest scrutiny. Look at this thread, how many times have I had to correct lies from posters here? Idiotic, ridiculous lies, that can be disproved with a 30 second Google search. Muslims are approaching a majority in Amsterdam (actually less than 10%). Mohammed is the most popular boyís name in the UK (Itís not actually in the top 20) and so it goes on and on. The fact that people are prepared to believe these lies, and then get angry with me for proving them to be lies, is scarier than any alleged Islamic conspiracy to take over the world. (Which after all, is just the same old ëReds under the bedsí scare from the 1950ís repackaged for the 21st century.)
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ìHowever, Iíve enjoyed your thoughtful and humorous writing, and remained impressed with the mastery so many Europeans have of English and other second languages.î
Thanks, it helps that my wife is an American writer.
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ìGood luck in the Netherlands, but I fear by the time your societies wake up to what is in your midst, it will be too late.î
Nonsense, it’s never going to happen.

No Pasaran! on July 20, 2007 at 9:51 am

Thanks for taking the time to give a thoughtful response. Obviously living in and being a citizen of the Netherlands gives you a perspective that we canít have. However, Iíd like to give you some other food for thought. I never said, or meant to imply, that a conservative Muslim minority would be able to take over the Netherlands. I do believe that they can become a dominant political group once reaching a critical population mass. The statistics I quoted referred to a 2005 study stating that the Muslim population in the Netherlands would reach over 1 million by 2006. In a country of 16 million, the math comes out to closer to 7% than the 4.5% you to which you refer. I donít think it is a stretch to say that given population trends and migration patterns, this population will in the near future rise to 15%. Europeís lax immigration enforcement (almost as bad as ours) and proximity to West and North Africa and the Middle East will almost ensure this reality. When this density is reached, you will see less in the way of integration, and more in the way of self-segregation. I understand your point of this being a two-way street, but it should be incumbent upon the visiting or new entrants to a society to initiate these inroads.
I donít think I need to tell you it doesnít take a majority to have an inordinate influence on political structure. Our own example in this country where a faction of conservatives in the Republican Party has essentially set the agenda (whether or not a particular reader approves of this agenda is immaterial) for the whole nation testifies to this. Is this model likely in a Muslim influenced Europe, on a regional and municipal basis, absolutely yes.
Iím sure you are familiar with American history, and you are of course correct in that the majority of our citizens are descended from foreign nationals. However, weíve always had, and continue to have, a pluralistic society whose actual culture is rooted in respect for laws and civil society and use of the English language. Part of the cherished culture r given to us by our laws is the freedom to express for those that have been oppressed. However, when that expression manifests itself in a disregard for law and order, polluting of the environment, subjugation of women, mistreatment of children and advocacy of hate emanating from a group of foreign nationals, you are witness to an invasion. Unlike Europeans, this country has a long history of a successful amalgamation of nationalities. My own immediate and extended family spans a range of colors, ethnicities, religions and nationalities. What we have in common culturally is a shared respect for the laws and freedoms that have preserved this country.
I wonder though about the coming generations of Muslims and their willingness to integrate into European societies. The threats and attacks recently in the UK have come in large part from first generation Muslims born to immigrant parents. Even more troublesome when many of those first Pakistani and Indian Muslim immigrants feel a greater connection to the UK than their own children.
I hope you are right in your assessments. But migration patterns change rapidly. Twenty years ago in the U.S. the illegal immigrant population stood around 2% of the overall population. Now it stands at, by some estimate, as much as 10%. With Italy and Spainís inability, or unwillingness to enforce Europeís borders, someday soon, youíll be facing the same. These new immigrants like, those in the U.S., have less and less desire to be a part of the native society (Dutch, Italian, American, etc). They would rather be Afghans or Turks living in the Netherlands. Like I said, Europe is in for a future of foreign settlements and occupation by people that will have no interest in European humanistic values. If the future immigration patterns in Europe looked differently, Iíd have more confidence in the ability of smaller population percentages being absorbed, but that isnít going to happen.
Debbie Schlussel often reports on Muslim and other immigration patterns in the U.S. and around the world. Maybe youíll drop by the site and comment on others you find interesting. Iíve appreciated the chance to read your views and perspective.
Finally, we will have to agree to disagree on what contitutes Islamic culture.

Staypositive on July 20, 2007 at 12:48 pm

ìI do believe that they can become a dominant political group once reaching a critical population mass.î
Well, if they reach a critical population mass, they SHOULD be a dominant political group. Thatís how democracy works.
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ìThe statistics I quoted referred to a 2005 study stating that the Muslim population in the Netherlands would reach over 1 million by 2006.î
Which didnít happen.
**
ìIn a country of 16 million, the math comes out to closer to 7% than the 4.5% you to which you refer.î
No it doesnít, if the Muslim population rose to 1 million, the overall population would have to rise by the same amount. The population figures I gave are not a guess, they are the official government stats, the CIA agrees btw. See Google for details.
**
ìI donít think it is a stretch to say that given population trends and migration patterns, this population will in the near future rise to 15%. ì
I think itís a huge stretch. As I said earlier Muslim birth rates are falling faster than any other social group in Europe, and are now approaching the European norms. Immigration into the E.U. is now massively more difficult than it was.
**
ìEuropeís lax immigration enforcement (almost as bad as ours) and proximity to West and North Africa and the Middle East will almost ensure this reality.î
It does no such thing for all the reasons stated previously.
ì When this density is reached, you will see less in the way of integration, and more in the way of self-segregation. I understand your point of this being a two-way street, but it should be incumbent upon the visiting or new entrants to a society to initiate these inroads.î
I disagree. The Turks and Maroccans were invited into the Netherlands to do the jobs the Dutch didnít want to do. Cleaning hospitals, working night-shifts etc etc ëGastarbeidersí. We actively recruited them, and as such, as ‘guest workers’ we have a responsibility to initiate integration.
**
ìIs this model likely in a Muslim influenced Europe, on a regional and municipal basis, absolutely yes.î
Absolutely not. Amsterdam has had a Socialist administration since 1910 (with the obvious exception of the period 1940 to 1944, when the guys with the Jack-boots were in charge. Those Muslims who are involved in politics in Amsterdam are invariably involved in traditional left-wing politics. There is no Islamicist political movement in Nederland.
***
ìÖweíve always had, and continue to have, a pluralistic society whose actual culture is rooted in respect for laws and civil society and use of the English language. Part of the cherished culture r given to us by our laws is the freedom to express for those that have been oppressed. ì
Blah, blah blah yes weíve got all the same stuff.
***
ìHowever, when that expression manifests itself in a disregard for law and order, polluting of the environment, subjugation of women, mistreatment of children and advocacy of hate emanating from a group of foreign nationals, you are witness to an invasion.î
Now you are slipping dangerously close to neo-Fascist territory.
How are foreigners polluting your environment? Surely itís capitalism and the persuit of profits that is doing that? Further Iíve seen no evidence that foreign nationals are more guilty of abusing children or subjugating women than anyone else in America.
**
ìUnlike Europeans, this country has a long history of a successful amalgamation of nationalities.î
Europe has been doing that this last 5,000 years.
**
ìMy own immediate and extended family spans a range of colors, ethnicities, religions and nationalities. What we have in common culturally is a shared respect for the laws and freedoms that have preserved this country.î
I kind of agree. However I believe Iím right in saying that your constitution REQUIRES itís citizens to bring the government down if they are being abused by the state, so the individual rules of law are not sacred.
**
ìI wonder though about the coming generations of Muslims and their willingness to integrate into European societies. The threats and attacks recently in the UK have come in large part from first generation Muslims born to immigrant parents. Even more troublesome when many of those first Pakistani and Indian Muslim immigrants feel a greater connection to the UK than their own children.î
Yes, as I said before this is ìFirst Generation Syndromeî Itís the same process that leads to the formation of Latino gangs in Los Angeles.
**
ìLike I said, Europe is in for a future of foreign settlements and occupation by people that will have no interest in European humanistic values. If the future immigration patterns in Europe looked differently, Iíd have more confidence in the ability of smaller population percentages being absorbed, but that isnít going to happen.î
I disagree with every single word of that paragraph ñ but you knew that already;-)
**
ìFinally, we will have to agree to disagree on what constitutes Islamic culture.î
True.

No Pasaran! on July 20, 2007 at 2:52 pm

ìI do believe that they can become a dominant political group once reaching a critical population mass.î
Well, if they reach a critical population mass, they SHOULD be a dominant political group. Thatís how democracy works.
**
ìThe statistics I quoted referred to a 2005 study stating that the Muslim population in the Netherlands would reach over 1 million by 2006.î
Which didnít happen.
**
ìIn a country of 16 million, the math comes out to closer to 7% than the 4.5% you to which you refer.î
No it doesnít, if the Muslim population rose to 1 million, the overall population would have to rise by the same amount. The population figures I gave are not a guess, they are the official government stats, the CIA agrees btw. See Google for details.
**
ìI donít think it is a stretch to say that given population trends and migration patterns, this population will in the near future rise to 15%. ì
I think itís a huge stretch. As I said earlier Muslim birth rates are falling faster than any other social group in Europe, and are now approaching the European norms. Immigration into the E.U. is now massively more difficult than it was.
**
ìEuropeís lax immigration enforcement (almost as bad as ours) and proximity to West and North Africa and the Middle East will almost ensure this reality.î
It does no such thing for all the reasons stated.
ì When this density is reached, you will see less in the way of integration, and more in the way of self-segregation. I understand your point of this being a two-way street, but it should be incumbent upon the visiting or new entrants to a society to initiate these inroads.î
I disagree. The Turks and Maroccans were invited into the Netherlands to do the jobs the Dutch didnít want to do. Cleaning hospitals, working night-shifts etc etc ëgastarbeidersí. We actively recruited them, and as such we have a responsibility to initiate integration.
**
ìIs this model likely in a Muslim influenced Europe, on a regional and municipal basis, absolutely yes.î
Absolutely not. Amsterdam has had a Socialist administration since 1910 (with the obvious exception of the period 1940 to 1944, when the guys with the Jack-boots were in charge. Those Muslims who are involved in politics in Amsterdam are invariably involved in traditional left-wing politics. There is no Islamicist political movement in Nederland.
***
ìÖweíve always had, and continue to have, a pluralistic society whose actual culture is rooted in respect for laws and civil society and use of the English language. Part of the cherished culture r given to us by our laws is the freedom to express for those that have been oppressed. ì
Blah, blah blah yes weíve got all the same stuff.
***
ìHowever, when that expression manifests itself in a disregard for law and order, polluting of the environment, subjugation of women, mistreatment of children and advocacy of hate emanating from a group of foreign nationals, you are witness to an invasion.î
Now you are slipping dangerously close to neo-Fascist territory.
How are foreigners polluting your environment? Surely itís capitalism and the persiut of profits that is doing that? Further Iíve seen no evidence that foreign nationals are more guilty of abusing children or subjugating women than anyone else in America.
**
ìUnlike Europeans, this country has a long history of a successful amalgamation of nationalities.î
Europe has been doing that this last 5,000 years.
**
ìMy own immediate and extended family spans a range of colors, ethnicities, religions and nationalities. What we have in common culturally is a shared respect for the laws and freedoms that have preserved this country.î
I kind of agree. However I believe Iím right in saying that your constitution REQUIRES itís citizens to bring the government down if they are being abused by the state, so the individual rules of law are not sacred.
**
ìI wonder though about the coming generations of Muslims and their willingness to integrate into European societies. The threats and attacks recently in the UK have come in large part from first generation Muslims born to immigrant parents. Even more troublesome when many of those first Pakistani and Indian Muslim immigrants feel a greater connection to the UK than their own children.î
Yes, as I said before this is ìFirst Generation Syndromeî Itís the same process that leads to the formation of Latino gangs in Los Angeles.
**
ìLike I said, Europe is in for a future of foreign settlements and occupation by people that will have no interest in European humanistic values. If the future immigration patterns in Europe looked differently, Iíd have more confidence in the ability of smaller population percentages being absorbed, but that isnít going to happen.î
I disagree with every single word of that paragraph ñ but you knew that already.
**
ìFinally, we will have to agree to disagree on what constitutes Islamic culture.î
True.

No Pasaran! on July 20, 2007 at 2:53 pm

No Pasaran!
Couple of points:
When I describe critical mass, I’m not speaking of a majority. In this context I’m referencing a point at which people will no longer wish to integrate (not backed by science or stats, but my own observations)
I donít posit that our laws are sacred, that’s why we hopefully use our votes to elect legislators to change them, or use the courts to invalidate those if we believe to be wrong. (yes, I know you have all that stuff too)
5,000 years of successful European amalgamation? Are you kidding me? Is there any continent with more blood-soaked battlefields? If you want to be sarcastic, check out WWI, WWII and the Balkans war for recent references, Paris riots, etc.
Even as I disagree with you, I’ve enjoyed your writing except for this:
“Now you are slipping dangerously close to NEO-FASCIST TERRITORY. How are foreigners polluting your environment? Surely itís capitalism and the persiut of profits that is doing that? Further Iíve seen no evidence that foreign nationals are more guilty of abusing children or subjugating women than anyone else in America.
Yes, the U.S. uses proportionately more energy and resources and pollutes more than anywhere else in the world. But if you lived here and volunteered in fields where individuals can make a difference in the environment such as recycling programs, energy conservation, public lands usage and maintenance (and its abuse), you would see the negative impact. Many environmental activists have voiced concerns, but they are easily branded as racists.
Finally, immigrants in the U.S. do abuse children, exploit those in child pornography, enslave domestic servants, batter women, violate child labor laws at higher rates than U.S. citizens, not to mention other niceties like female genital mutilation. Don’t think so? Check our jail populations for convictions on these charges in comparison to respective population levels. Will the children of these immigrants commit crimes at these higher rates? I hope not, but with our immigrant population mass, I don’t know that they will emerge from the cultures that helped create this behavior. Do Americans commit these crimes? Of course they do and Iím not saying they donít. You haven’t seen the evidence of these rates because you are not exposed to that field and donít enforce those laws.
There is a constituency here and in Europe that blames a host of domestic problems on immigrants (and in the U.S. illegal immigration in particular) for which they cannot possibly be all responsible. I donít subscribe to many of their positions. However, the danger is discounting the legitimate arguments made regarding the negative impact of immigration because of the adoption of those arguments by controversial groups.
On a lighter note, people here in the U.S. still often refer to the Netherlands as Holland in part because many products state ìMade in Hollandî. Best of luck to you and Europe.

Staypositive on July 20, 2007 at 7:20 pm

“No pasaran!” does not simply mean “they will not pass” in Spanish, it is the slogan that the communists used in 1937, so now you know that whoever chooses “no pasaran!” as a name is a flaming communist.
Now about the preposterous contention that if Europe shifted to the left it is further away from fascism. Adolf Hitler’s political party was called National Socialist Labor Party of Germany, and he used red flag with swastika on it, so that you know that it is German and could tell it from the red flag with the hammer and sickle on it, tell it from the Russian version of it.
Lefty leaders of European Union voted against Poland when Poland was asking them to recognize that communism=fascism.
Shame on socialist governments.
Socialism does always precede communist. It was this way in 1937 in Spain, it is this way now everywhere

sk on July 23, 2007 at 2:14 pm

“”No pasaran!” does not simply mean “they will not pass” in Spanish, it is the slogan that the communists used in 1937, so now you know that whoever chooses “no pasaran!” as a name is a flaming communist.”
Ugh yeah riiiiiiiiight sk, whatver you say buddy.
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“Now about the preposterous contention that if Europe shifted to the left it is further away from fascism. Adolf Hitler’s political party was called National Socialist Labor Party of Germany, and he used red flag with swastika on it, so that you know that it is German and could tell it from the red flag with the hammer and sickle on it, tell it from the Russian version of it. ”
Ok right, I didn’t think there was anyone left in the world today nutty enough to believe this crap. If Adolf Hitler was a leftist, why did he murder 400,000 ethnic aryan German Communists, Socialists & Trade Unionists?
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“Lefty leaders of European Union voted against Poland when Poland was asking them to recognize that communism=fascism.”
Well that’s probably because communism has almost nothing to do with fascism, they are (as anyone with a functioning brain will tell you) functional opposits of each other.
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“Shame on socialist governments.”
No shame on you for commentating on subject you clearly know nothing about.
**
“Socialism does always precede communist. It was this way in 1937 in Spain, it is this way now everywhere.”
Spain was never a Socialist country, let alone a Communist one.
I hope you are happy in this weird alternative universe you inhabit, SK. Should you ever return to Planet Earth let me know.
I’ll buy you a beer.

No Pasaran! on July 24, 2007 at 6:49 am

I never said communists won in Spain in 1937. Luckily they lost and had to go to live in Russia, where I met them and they told me all about first hand. By the way now they are really sorry.

sk on July 25, 2007 at 5:41 pm