you can say whatever you like about our Christian brothers but just remember, We can still move freely in our countries move from city to city , unlike you who need to build concrete walls around your towns. We don’t like living in cages, and we don’t rely on foreign help to fight our battles and wipe our asses we also don’t kiss asses of other countries just so we can get protection. The problem is that you will never have peace on this earth as it is written, until you believe. I like your blog as I can speak freely IHOPE I haven’t offended anyone if I did LET IT BE WRITTEN LET IT BE SAID THE RED SEA WILL NOT BE PARTED AGAIN FOR THE JEWS?

crusaders on January 10, 2010 at 7:59 pm

THE Jews hate everyone including their own people, I fully understand why they are disliked by others, all they care about is the color of money, Maybe you can change the star of David on your national flag to the dollar sign, you can also have a Jewish nose on the flag represented. (hideous looking nose have you had some work done Debbie).

I: Spoken like a true member of the Coptic Church. Exactly the reason I’m not crying over what happened at Nag Hamadi. DS

inosethenose on January 10, 2010 at 8:49 pm

One of my friends made an interesting comment about the few Christians living in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. He stated
that they really have no choice but to be publicly anti-semitic/anti-Israeli, because the muslims will kill them otherwise.

I’ve met Lebanese Christians who are perfectly happy that Israel
is a Jewish state and could NOT visit Israel while they lived in Lebanon, because having an Israeli stamp on your passport would be an invitation to instant incarceration or death at the hands of the muslims.

KufarDog on January 10, 2010 at 9:20 pm

Sorry for the repeat if this has already been pointed out, but what is up with that crazy hair?! =^0

Brian on January 11, 2010 at 1:32 am

I agree to a point. The interesting thing is you cite the rantings of a living person (the Coptic Pope) for leading the Copts astray, not, as with Muslims, the religious texts themselves. This is the problem with Islam. “It’s the texts, stupid!”–you could say.
One thing is true though; Muslims theologically are impelled by Islamic texts to hate Jews more than Christians, and the latter, or at least the less principalled part, are merely siding with Muslims in hopes of some better treatment.
The PLO (Muslims) have already have an answer for that though–“First the Saturday people, than the Sunday people.”

Max Publius on January 11, 2010 at 12:24 pm

Shy Guy… Ha, ha, ha, ha…

You are a funny guy. You’re little “proofs” may work with Protestants who are somewhat confused about the Old Testament to begin with… but they ain’t gonna’ work on me.

And the New Testament totally throws them. By the way, anybody, ANYBODY, that quotes the KJV is out to lunch. Errors, man. Lots.

An evangelical friend of mine, his father, once said to me that he was deeply impressed with the spirituality of Pope John Paul II. But then he went on to say that he thought that this holy Pope was a little naive expecting people (the world) not to use artificial contraception.

So I asked him how many condoms could be found in the Garden of Eden?

Catholicism is a return to that beginning morality. Purity. The expectations of God, for man, from the dawn of Creation. When another religion preaches a loftier morality, I might consider it. Catholicism is not only concerned with right action, but with the intent of the believer. Even secret thoughts will be judged on the final day.

Moses allowed a lot of things that Jesus overturned. Who compares to Jesus? Who has had such an impact on mankind as him? What messiah could be better in action? Christ Jesus inaugurated the New (and final) Covenant declared by the prophet Jeremiah (Jer 31:31 – 34). New, implies that the old has passed its’ usefulness and is to be put away. Jesus supported the Torah until the New Covenant was ushered in at the Last Supper. The Church now was to replace the synagogue as the Kingdom of God was established first locally, then internationally. The Mass became our liturgy based on the Last Supper (Eucharist) and OT Jewish religious practice.

Man, I wish I only had 613 commandments to follow to achieve righteousness.

I wish I had the easy way out.

Check this out: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8452403.stm?ls

And this, the power of a saint’s relic:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/151151/Nun-s-miracle-cured-cancer-after-doctors-left-no-hope

And when you’re ready, I know you’re not, but…: http://neverwasanarrow.blogspot.com/2009/06/not-ready-for-jesus.html

The Canadien on January 11, 2010 at 9:08 pm

Eastern Christianity will live strong forever and ever as we have a special place in gods heart and for all you none believers I pity you? Change your ways denounce your religion and turn to our savior JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. PEACE BE WITH YOU.

rebel@hotmail.com on January 11, 2010 at 10:44 pm

Shy Guy Ha, ha, ha, ha

You are a funny guy. You’re little proofs may work with Protestants who are somewhat confused about the Old Testament to begin with but they ain’t gonna’ work on me.

The Canadien on January 11, 2010 at 9:08 pm

——————————————

Sure. That’s why you completely avoid responding to my points.

And the New Testament totally throws them. By the way, anybody, ANYBODY, that quotes the KJV is out to lunch. Errors, man. Lots.

——————————————

You’ll find that my verbatim quote from 1 Corinthians is from the CATHOLIC Online New Jerusalem Bible. Dimwits for Jesus shines through ever so much brighter there.

An evangelical friend of mine, his father, once said to me that he was deeply impressed with the spirituality of Pope John Paul II. But then he went on to say that he thought that this holy Pope was a little naive expecting people (the world) not to use artificial contraception.

So I asked him how many condoms could be found in the Garden of Eden?

——————————————
Not dealing with the issue of birth control right now, but according to your primitive logic, I hope you don’t use any electric appliances or drive a car because none of them were to be found in the Garden of Eden just the same.

Catholicism is a return to that beginning morality. Purity. The expectations of God, for man, from the dawn of Creation. When another religion preaches a loftier morality, I might consider it. Catholicism is not only concerned with right action, but with the intent of the believer. Even secret thoughts will be judged on the final day.

—————————————–

You should head over to the library and read up on the ancient history of how much in-house barbarianism and butchering was employed in order to reach the First Council of Nicaea. And it only went downhill from there. Sucker.

Moses allowed a lot of things that Jesus overturned.

—————————————-

I though you knew your bible?! Moses didn’t allow or prohibit anything. G-d did. According to you, the G-d of the Torah is a very fickle creator. He says one thing throughout the Torah, Prophets and Scriptures, and then some nobody comes along and says let’s drop everything you’ve known to be true until today.

Who compares to Jesus? Who has had such an impact on mankind as him?

—————————————-
A simple answer would be Mohamed. Hey, you’re the one turning this into a popularity contest. That doesn’t make anything true.

The more accurate answer would be G-d of the Torah, the Creator. You’re religion doesn’t get off the ground without Him. Neither does Islam, for that matter.

What messiah could be better in action?

When he arrives, I’ll tell you. In the meantime, your dead jesus never met the criteria to be the messiah. You still cannot refute the contents of those videos. And I thought the truth was supposed to set you free. You are a typing desecration of the name of Heaven.

Christ Jesus inaugurated the New (and final) Covenant declared by the prophet Jeremiah (Jer 31:31 – 34).

—————————————-
Jeremiah 31 for dummies. I thought you said you Catholics are so much smarter than the Protestants. They try pulling the same shtick as you do.

New, implies that the old has passed its’ usefulness and is to be put away.

That’s what happens when you don’t know the difference between “covenant” and “law”. And that’s why you cannot deal with the multiple blatant Biblical contradictions to you “classic” christian claim. None of them hold water. They never did.

Man, I wish I only had 613 commandments to follow to achieve righteousness.

I wish I had the easy way out.

—————————————
You’ve always had that option.

Check this out: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8452403.stm?ls

And this, the power of a saint’s relic:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/151151/Nun-s-miracle-cured-cancer-after-doctors-left-no-hope

We Jews have no lack of “faith healers”, some outright charlatans and some unexplainable. So do other religions, including primitive African witchdoctors and christianity. Benny Hinn comes to mind.

How embarrassing that you think that this proves anything about any religion. Grow up.

And when you’re ready, I know you’re not, but…: http://neverwasanarrow.blogspot.com/2009/06/not-ready-for-jesus.html

There is nothing there which refutes even one single point which I bring up here regarding the fallacy of the new testament in any way being able to abrogate anything in the Torah, when the Torah consistently states otherwise.

It is you who is not ready. You’re not interested in dealing with such simple truths, all clearly stated and logically presented.

But keep on laughing. It’s good for the soul.

Shy Guy on January 12, 2010 at 1:28 am

Change your ways denounce your religion and turn to our savior JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. PEACE BE WITH YOU.

rebel@hotmail.com on January 11, 2010 at 10:44 pm

I’ve heard this before.

Shy Guy on January 12, 2010 at 1:31 am

Shy Guy… brother, you are leaning on a secular humanist (Earl Doherty and the completely laughable work, “The Jesus Puzzle”) to support your claim that Jesus may not have even existed.

Straw grab. You.

Those who use arguments like these leave themselves wide open to similar assertions about David, Moses, Noah, or Adam.

And messsiahtruth guy was using extensive KJV citations. I saw that AND that was it! That you used one NJBV quote, big whoop. And don’t remind of the New Jerusalem Bible that uses inclusive language. Thankfully, I still have copies of the Jerusalem Bible.

The First Council of Nicaea had some violence to it? So what. Heretics and schismatics have always brought the Church into the arena of violence.

Moses didn’t allow or prohibit anything. G-d did. Jesus noted that divorce was allowed by Moses because of the hardness of hearts of Moses’ contemporaries.

Matthew 19

“3 Some Pharisees approached him, and to put him to the test they said, ‘Is it against the Law for a man to divorce his wife on any pretext whatever?’

4 He answered, ‘Have you not read that the Creator from the beginning made them male and female 5 and that he said: This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and the two become one flesh? 6 They are no longer two, therefore, but one flesh. So then, what God has united, human beings must not divide.’

7 They said to him, ‘Then why did Moses command that a writ of dismissal should be given in cases of divorce?’

8 He said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard-hearted, that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but it was not like this from the beginning.

9 Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife — I am not speaking of an illicit marriage — and marries another, is guilty of adultery.’

10 The disciples said to him, ‘If that is how things are between husband and wife, it is advisable not to marry.’

11 But he replied, ‘It is not everyone who can accept what I have said, but only those to whom it is granted. 12 There are eunuchs born so from their mother’s womb, there are eunuchs made so by human agency and there are eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.’

You can’t pretend Jeremiah 31:31-34 is other than what I previously stated. Rabbis since the Rabbinical Age have been trying to downplay these passages. With little success.

Look, your Temple was destroyed as Jesus predicted. You do not offer animal sacrifice in the Jerusalem Temple today, why? Where is your High Priest with proper lineage? What genealogical records support any priesthood to offer legitimate sacrifice? Those genealogical records supporting a valid priesthood were destroyed along with the Temple, right?

No priesthood, no fully valid religion except through an emergency makeover by 1st century rabbis who initiated, and rolled out, a new Judaism. All, on their own authority!

And how could the Temple be rebuilt a third time, when the Second Temple was only built under prophetic guidance?

No Daniel 9:27 was right.

When the Messiah arrived, an end was put to Temple sacrifice (Jesus instituted the sacrifice of the Mass, the only true and worthy offering to the Father… the destroyed Temple would come later within a generation (… he will put a stop to sacrifice and oblation, and on the wing of the Temple will be the appalling abomination until the end, until the doom assigned to the devastator).

Rabbi Judah Loew ben Bezalel lamented that the times for the fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel “were over long ago” (Sanhedrin 98b, 97a).

You know I have heard of Jews converting to Islam and I think with a Jew’s extensive biblical background, why, why, would they do that?

And then I have heard of some Jews converting to Catholicism with a similarly extensive biblical background and understanding and I think why not, Rome should be their home!

You have a great day!

The Canadien on January 12, 2010 at 6:01 pm

Shy Guy… brother, you are leaning on a secular humanist (Earl Doherty

The Canadien on January 12, 2010 at 6:01 pm

——————————————-

Yep. I know that. Not agreeing in many aspects with someone does not discount the logic of some of there arguments. You teach me nothing new here I didn’t know about Doherty.

And we are not brothers.

and the completely laughable work, “The Jesus Puzzle”)

——————————————

It’s quite an impressive book, actually, though I don’t agree with their assumptions about “Q”.

I’m glad you’re laughing. I am, too. But at your world of fantasy. All you can do is denigrate what rubs you the wrong way without putting up a substantive counter-argument. Pity you.

to support your claim that Jesus may not have even existed.

Straw grab. You.

——————————————

Not at all. In fact, it is not the crux of my arguments with you. I couldn’t care less whether the Jesus depicted in the NT actually existed or is pure pulp fiction. It is not the relevant issue.

Talk about straw men!!!

Those who use arguments like these leave themselves wide open to similar assertions about David, Moses, Noah, or Adam.

——————————————

Bring ’em on!

And messsiahtruth guy was using extensive KJV citations. I saw that AND that was it!

——————————————

His main points are even according to the KJV with all of its mistakes, the NT fails to trump the Tanach. Go ahead and substitute any valid NT translation. The arguments still stand.

That you used one NJBV quote, big whoop.

——————————————
Damned if I do and damned if I don’t. Again, what argument which I presented fails simply because it quoted the KJV versus something else more to your fancy? Waiting….

And don’t remind of the New Jerusalem Bible that uses inclusive language. Thankfully, I still have copies of the Jerusalem Bible.

———————————————–

Pick and choose. Pick and choose. Again, makes no substantial difference on anything we’ve discussed. If you think it does, point out the specifics.

Moses didn’t allow or prohibit anything. G-d did.

Jesus noted that divorce was allowed by Moses because of the hardness of hearts of Moses’ contemporaries.

Matthew 19

“3 Some Pharisees approached him, and to put him to the test they said, ‘Is it against the Law for a man to divorce his wife on any pretext whatever?’

4 He answered, ‘Have you not read that the Creator from the beginning made them male and female 5 and that he said: This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and the two become one flesh? 6 They are no longer two, therefore, but one flesh. So then, what God has united, human beings must not divide.’

7 They said to him, ‘Then why did Moses command that a writ of dismissal should be given in cases of divorce?’

8 He said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard-hearted, that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but it was not like this from the beginning.

9 Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife — I am not speaking of an illicit marriage — and marries another, is guilty of adultery.’

10 The disciples said to him, ‘If that is how things are between husband and wife, it is advisable not to marry.’

11 But he replied, ‘It is not everyone who can accept what I have said, but only those to whom it is granted. 12 There are eunuchs born so from their mother’s womb, there are eunuchs made so by human agency and there are eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.’

——————————————-
Simply amazing that no such logic or claims can be found anywhere at anytime in Jewish history prior to the doodlings above in your book of fabrications. Now why do you think that is? And you still have to deal with the eternity of the Torah and its commandments, the laws of marriage and divorce being among them.

You are trying to prove to me that what the NT says is true because the NT says so. That’s called circular reasoning. Failure.

And verse 9 shows a non-Jewish ignorance of what “adultery” in Torah law is altogether. Failure.

In verse 11, we have Jesus admitting that no normal Jew would accept what he just claimed. Only his disciples would lap up these newfangled rules, fashioned not from G-d and the Torah.

Note that verse 12 advocates “eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven.” This was a common pagan practice, imported into Christianity to accommodate its pagan following. You would think the author(s) of Matthew would have been aware of the prohibition against it in Deuteronomy 23:2 and Leviticus 20:24.

You can’t pretend Jeremiah 31:31-34 is other than what I previously stated. Rabbis since the Rabbinical Age have been trying to downplay these passages. With little success.

That’s it? That’s your demagogic argument? I can’t “pretend” and the Rabbis have had “little success”? Once again: Jeremiah 31 for dummies. Skip me and skip the rabbis and deal with Daniel 9:4, Nehemiah 1:5, 1 Chronicles 16:13 and Isaiah 24:5. In addition, you have failed to deal with the article’s arguments on christianity’s own flaky contentions on these verse. Waiting….

Look, your Temple was destroyed as Jesus predicted.

———————————————–

If you go and date the writings of the NT, you will find that the gospel drafts containing these words were written post-fact. How impressive is that? But there’s more…

You do not offer animal sacrifice in the Jerusalem Temple today, why? Where is your High Priest with proper lineage?

————————————————

Where was all of this when the 1st Temple was destroyed 100s of years earlier? There was no Jesus then and he serves no more relevance after the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

You mean you think that Judaism can’t survive without the Temple? You obviously haven’t read the Prophets, whom Christianity itself claims to believe in. Let me help you a little bit:

Blood Sacrifice

Atonement

Once again, know your Bible! You obviously don’t.

What genealogical records support any priesthood to offer legitimate sacrifice? Those genealogical records supporting a valid priesthood were destroyed along with the Temple, right?

Wrong. Priests and Levites have been keeping track of themselves just fine over the millennia. If there are any problems, I’m sure G-d will sort them out when the Jewish messiah does finally arrive to rebuild the 3rd and final Temple in Jerusalem.

Red herring.

No priesthood, no fully valid religion except through an emergency makeover by 1st century rabbis who initiated, and rolled out, a new Judaism. All, on their own authority!

———————————————–

Wrong from top to bottom, just as such a claim was without value after the destruction of the 1st Temple.

Wishful thinking. Read your Prophets. No rabbis required.

And how could the Temple be rebuilt a third time, when the Second Temple was only built under prophetic guidance?

No Daniel 9:27 was right.

——————————————–

I thought you said you Catholics are craftier than those Protestants. This is the same hooey they belch at us. This is old hash. You’ll find a lengthy rebuttal toward the bottom of this article: The Testimony of Scripture. Just search for the phrase “daniel 9” to find it.

And once again, in all of this, there isn’t a single occurrence or mention of Jesus anywhere in all of Tanach, except for Deuteronomy 13:1-6 and Deuteronomy 18:20-22. Deal with it. You keep on avoiding it. I wonder not why……

You know I have heard of Jews converting to Islam and I think with a Jew’s extensive biblical background, why, why, would they do that?

And then I have heard of some Jews converting to Catholicism with a similarly extensive biblical background and understanding and I think why not, Rome should be their home!

I know people of all religions that have converted to numerous other faiths.

Why don’t you mention all the Christians who have converted to Judaism? Again, this is a point which proves nothing.

The prophets looked forward to a time when all of humanity will be united in worship of the God of the Jews (Zephaniah 3:9). They hoped for a world in which the central expression of mankind’s submission to God is the service preformed in the third temple, by the Aaronic priests (Ezekiel 44:15, Zechariah 14:16). A world in which God’s presence is manifest in the midst of the Jewish people, in order that the nations know “that I the Lord do sanctify Israel when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever” (Ezekiel 37:28). A world in which former monarchs bow low to the Jewish people “in order that you know that I am the Lord and those that hope to Me will not be shamed” (Isaiah 49:23). A world in which the Law of Moses is faithfully observed (Deut. 30:10) under the direction of the Aaronic priests (Ezekiel 44:23,24). A Messiah prince who brings a sin offering for himself, leading the people with his own submission to God (Ezekiel 45:22).

What does all this mean to a Christian? Is this what the Christian yearns and hopes for? Are the worshipers of Jesus hoping for a day when the only one being worshiped is the God of Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Zechariah? Are the Christians waiting for a day when the descendants of Israel’s tormentors will bow low to the Jewish people, and those that despised them will prostrate themselves at the Jew’s feet? (Isaiah 60:14). Are the Christians looking forward to the time when God’s light is revealed upon the downtrodden and persecuted nation, and all the nations will walk by that light? (Isaiah 60:1-3). Do Christians consider these events the end purpose of history as do the prophets of scripture?

Of-course not! So where does Christianity find the audacity to claim that these scriptures support their crooked doctrine? It doesn’t. It never has.

Look, if you wish to believe in a pagan man-god, go for it! But it is completely contrary to what G-d commands in His Torah, and to what the Jewish Prophets and Scriptures warn against. As I’ve shown in the countless Tanach verses mentioned in articles I’ve linked to, Christian claims of any foundation based on the Torah are rootless. To us, yours is just another form of prohibited pagan worship, in the most elementary sense. Always was. Always will be until the advent of the Jewish messiah, when all that is mentioned in Zechariah 8 and elsewhere will finally occur:

1 And the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying: 2 ‘Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I am jealous for her with great fury. 3 Thus saith the LORD: I return unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called the city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. {S} 4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women sit in the broad places of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age. 5 And the broad places of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the broad places thereof. {S} 6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in Mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. {P}

20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities; 21 and the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying: Let us go speedily to entreat the favour of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I will go also. 22 Yea, many peoples and mighty nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favour of the LORD. {S} 23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ {S}

And there’s no jesus there, as there’s no jesus anywhere else in Jewish scriptures or Jewish history prior to your year 1. It really is that simple.

Shy Guy on January 13, 2010 at 2:42 am

For Christians here who would like to understand just a little bit better why we Jews cannot agree with your beliefs, I can only recommend reading Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History, by David Klinghoffer.

This is NOT a book proselytizing Judaism to Christians or to anyone else. It will simply broaden your understanding of why Jews must agree to disagree.

Shy Guy on January 13, 2010 at 2:56 am

Copts are not looking for anyone to help them. They are looking only to God, Jesus Christ!

Only God on January 13, 2010 at 6:13 pm

Well, Shy Guy… you’re copious response to my posts betrays your zeal.

Misguided, but worthy of respect, for sure.

That you turn to atheists to support your denunciation of God continues to marvel. But that’s ok. I never encountered an atheist yet who could read the Bible in anything but a linear fashion. The mystical is quite beyond them.

I have had atheists quote the OT asking me what’s up with God?

Then they say God commands that I kill witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB), homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB), fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB), adulterers (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) believers in other gods (Exodus 22:20) ETC!! and a BIG! etc at that!!

I tell them, context. Everything must be read in context. And sometimes, not. I am not an Israelite. We are in a different time.

The Law and the Prophets lasted until the arrival of JOHN the BAPTIST.

“For the law came through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)”

I also tell them, ANCIENT ISRAEL was a theocracy… not a democracy and false worship was not tolerated.

You may say that the Book of Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, but you’d be wrong. The Christians of Jerusalem were warned to flee to Pella in 66 AD, and they did.

That you try to wave off the significance of the Temple and sacrifices as no longer being part of the worship of God… well, those who want to rebuild the Temple disagree with that.

Snippets fulfil prophesy and they don’t always have to be in context. Jesus was sinless. So right away “types” of Christ, that foreshadow him like Moses, or David, will never be smooth comparisons. They were sinners, Jesus was not.

And God needs to mention Jesus by name in Jewish Scripture? You are to work toward recognizing Him, as the Messiah. The evidence is there, and demands a verdict. Right Josh!? God alludes… persuades.

Euphemisms are used regularly in the OT. He lay with her, instead of he ––––– his –––– in ––– and ––– her brains ––– etc.

Not everything is put plainly.

Learn to read the OT. Properly. And not like a Protestant either.

Oh, man when put you forward that Jewish counter-apologist guy (ProfMTH) arguing with some kid named Kabane, right from the kid’s bedroom with his closet doors in the background… seriously I was laughing so hard I almost pi––ed myself!

I have got to show my friends this!

Kabane! The entire, worldwide defence of Christianity is riding on some kid named Kabane!!

Has it come down to this?

I am calling Pope Benedict right now! I knew there were shortages in the priesthood… BUT I NEVER knew it was this bad!!!!

That was too much!

A kid with a bowlcut even!!

Remember Protestants ARE NOT Catholics and we aren’t as confused as Joshy Doodles and each Protestant who preaches his own thing, and offers his own worship or strange fire to the Lord and does not participate in the liturgy established by Jesus!

But it would take a book to thoroughly counter all these charges you’ve presented! From various sources. They don’t scandalize me. Minor problems at best.

Check out this guy, Roy Schoeman, a proud Jew WHO was converted to Catholicism AFTER he encountered the Blessed Virgin Mother in a dream! I have never heard of such a miraculous conversion before.

See: http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/

I am not trying to convert you, but raise your awareness that there are indeed intellectually sound reasons to believe in God, and in the Son of Man.

The Canadien on January 14, 2010 at 10:09 pm

The Canadien on January 14, 2010 at 10:09 pm

————————————-

A whole lotta pontification. The usual denigration. The standard NT quotations. Plenty of distraction.

Not a single logical, factual refutation.

Thanks for proving my point.

Shy Guy on January 14, 2010 at 11:56 pm

Uh, Shy Guy, you’re asking me to defend Evangelical Messianic proof-texts that I may not necessarily agree with.

You seem to forget that the Roman Catholic Church was there in the beginning. Look at the Epistle the Apostle Paul wrote us, and he wrote none to the Evangel crowd of America! WE TOO have an Oral Tradition that the Protestants, and Evangelicals do NOT have.

Debating with Luther’s crowd I normally stay almost all of the time in the New Testament. Going back into the OT to bolster a Marian position, the primacy of Peter, the Trinity etc. I never have a need to debate from Messianic prophesies BECAUSE Prots, Evos already believe Jesus is the Messiah!

I would have to do more research to see where these counter-apologists are making their mistakes and how to effectively counter on their terms.

For instance I don’t use Papal Encyclicals with Pro-Choice Protestants to refute their immorality because they don’t accept the authority of the Pope. We have to talk from the Bible, or about the Early Church Fathers, who have numerous common ground writings that can still be mutually perused.

The volume “The Church Teaches” is handy to show Evangelicals when and where heretics and schematics were refuted by the Church. Thousands of years ago, how and why the Church refuted the Arians, the Copts! etc. long before their Good Book Baptist Church of America was on the scene … There are hundreds of these faith and moral refutations.

It’s a humbling experience for them. Slowly the truth descends on them. A barnburner occurs when they realize that their Protestant sect follows the Jewish biblical canon, and NOT the biblical canon of the Early Church! That the Catholic Church STILL uses to this day!

And they don’t.

There were many works claiming to be inspired but the Catholic Church sifted through them all, and our blessed Canon of the Bible has 7 more books than their Protestant Bible. And that always, always, disturbs them.

So I have to learn new ways, if I talk about Jesus amongst the Hebrews.

But I won’t send you away empty-handed.

I know the whole Jewish world is waiting anxiously for the Bible-moth Kabane to give his next address, right from his bedroom, so I’ll intrude, and only tarry here for just bit, ‘kay?

Here’s your actual Messianic prophesy:

“Cast your eyes over the nations, look, and be amazed, astounded.

For I am doing something in your own days which you will not believe if you are told of it.”
(Habakkuk 1:5)

… you will not believe if you are told of it.”

How true that turned out to be!

The Jews by and large remained Jews, but the Gentiles converted to God, one nation after another!

And that Parable of the Mustard Seed that Jesus told. A prophesy of the growth of the Church (Kingdom of God) that over a long time came true. The Church would start off so small, almost unnoticeable, and eventually grow so large that it would have world-wide impact (Mark 4:30-2).

Now, 2,000 years ago… how did Jesus know that would be the outcome?

I know your first OCD response is going to be to jump all over this post.

Remember that song, “Who Let the Dogs Out?”

But think, and above all pray, about what is happening here, ok?

The Canadien on January 15, 2010 at 2:54 pm

I’ve tried replying over the last day but the blogware suppresses my comments.

I’ll try a work-around.

Shy Guy on January 17, 2010 at 1:07 pm

Uh, Shy Guy, you’re asking me to defend Evangelical Messianic proof-texts that I may not necessarily agree with.

The Canadien on January 15, 2010 at 2:54 pm

——————————————-

Uh, uh, uh, no. I asked you to defend the claims in the NT that jesus is the messiah. The NT verses are there. It makes no difference to me which NT translation you use, as long as it’s honest to the Greek originals. Once again ProfMTH’s YouTube playlist clearly shows why Jesus was not anybody’s messiah. (See my previous posts for the playlist link – blogware software suppressing this post when I specify the URL).

Your ridiculing of Kabane and ProfMTH’s response to him only shows your arrogance. ProfMTH responded to a “video response” made by YouTube user Kabane, who only had the best intentions of defending his faith. As primitive as Kabane’s response was, ProfMTH responded to him politely, pointing out the illogical failure of his claims.

Since you seem to agree that Kabane defense of christianity has nothing to offer, I suggest you concentrate on simply rebutting the original 4 parts of the series.

You’re so clever, perhaps you can respond to ProfMTH with a video response of your own, showing how fallible ProfMTH’s claims are. Waiting…………

Here’s your actual Messianic prophesy:

“Cast your eyes over the nations, look, and be amazed, astounded.

For I am doing something in your own days which you will not believe if you are told of it.”
(Habakkuk 1:5)

” you will not believe if you are told of it.”

How true that turned out to be!

—————————————–

You keep on finalizing my convictions that you are the representative extraordinaire of “dimwits for Jesus.”

Care to read that verse in Habakkuk in its natural context? Did you bother to read on to the very next verse?

“6. that behold, I am setting up the Chaldeans, the bitter and impetuous nation who shall march through the breadth of the land, to inherit dwellings that are not theirs.”

There is not even an end of sentence between verses 5 and 6 – just a comma.

It’s time you stop insulting Protestants. You show no intellectual skills to be proud of.

Shy Guy on January 17, 2010 at 1:12 pm

Uh, uh, uh, no. I asked you to defend the claims in the NT that Jesus is the messiah.

John 4: 21 – 26

21 Jesus said: Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know; for salvation comes from the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming — indeed is already here — when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth: that is the kind of worshipper the Father seeks.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth.
25 The woman said to him, ‘I know that Messiah — that is, Christ — is coming; and when he comes he will explain everything.’
26 Jesus said, ‘That is who I am, I who speak to you.’

Everybody knows what the Book of Habakkuk is about. God is using evil (on a national level vs an individual level), those Chaldeans, to punish Israel for her crime. This action by God scandalizes the prophet, Habakkuk.

But Paul notes an even bigger scandal was to come. And so he uses that quote with the crowds at Antioch.

The Messiah would not be a warrior king like King David, but Christ crucified.

And the Messiah would not be someone who just takes his lineage from the Kingly or the Priestly line, but One who hails from eternity.

And that precisely is the point with Jesus. The Messiah will be something Israel did not quite expect.

And that is why the Apostle Paul used the quote in Antioch to bring home that point. But he asserted, the message must be brought first to the Jews, and once rejected, the message of salvation must go to the gentiles. All that were destined for eternal life became believers.

The Jerusalem Temple is gone, the Ark of the Covenant is lost (I still can’t get over that one), there are no sacrifices, no priests, there is now only a Rabbinical (teaching) Judaism, and only the lowly local synagogue is left. The new Rabbinical Judaism looks strangely different from the robust Judaism in the OT, I’d say.

The Muslims are perched there on the former Temple site with their Dome of the Rock. This blocks any future rebuilding of the Temple, at least, until the apostate time warned about in the latter part of the Book of Revelation. Clearly God has set Himself against you. At least for the past 2,000 years.

And I am more than a match for Protestants.

I have been tossed out of more than one Evangelical church for pointing out inconsistencies in their own faith declaration, and the NT.

It even cost me a fiancee once. Big deal.

The future is wide open. Both in women, and converts.

The Canadien on January 20, 2010 at 9:51 pm

John 4: 21 – 26

The Canadien on January 20, 2010 at 9:51 pm

——————————————-

What does this prove? Nothing more than someone authored a manuscript some time in the 1st or 2nd century, stating that someone named Jesus self-proclaimed himself to be the messiah.

My question to you was regarding ProfMTH’s disputations of the NT claims. You can’t seem to reconcile them – or you don’t want to. Once again: ‘Jesus Was Not the Messiah’.

Everybody knows what the Book of Habakkuk is about. God is using evil (on a national level vs an individual level), those Chaldeans, to punish Israel for her crime. This action by God scandalizes the prophet, Habakkuk.

But Paul notes an even bigger scandal was to come. And so he uses that quote with the crowds at Antioch.

So the NT, which I have no reason to believe in the first place, uses an existing Tanach prophecy text – which you now admit has the Chaldeans as its subject and not your jesus – as an analogy to the story of jesus? So? Why is anyone to be impressed by making analogies, whether from the bible or from Shakespeare or from Harry Potter?

The Messiah would not be a warrior king like King David, but Christ crucified.

—————————————

“And David My servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.” (Ezekiel 37:24 KJV)

Ditto verse 25 therein. Explain to us all how god is his own servant. Yeh, that makes a lotta sense.

The messiah, a human being like you and me, has not arrived yet. Here’s why. And I’ve already shown you why even according to the NT itself, your jesus cannot be the messiah – man or mouse.

The Jerusalem Temple is gone, the Ark of the Covenant is lost (I still can’t get over that one), there are no sacrifices

——————————–

So, then, Ezekiel is a false prophet and a liar according to you? Once again, Ezekiel 37:

26 “Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them–it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.”

One of the numerous things your false messiah failed to accomplish as dictated by the prophecies of old.

FAILURE!

there are no sacrifices,

——————————-
Just like there were none after the 1st Temple’s destruction.

Let me AGAIN point out why this doesn’t prove anything about christianity:

Blood Sacrifice

Atonement

All of this stems from Torah commandments and prophecies which existed hundreds and hundreds of years before the advent of your false religion. Nothing changed from the time of the Revelation at Sinai to this present day which makes it incapable of us Jews to fulfill our destiny at the maximum allowed under existing conditions.

7 Even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer; their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be acceptable upon Mine altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. 8 Saith the Lord GOD who gathereth the dispersed of Israel: Yet I will gather others to him, beside those of him that are gathered.
– Isaiah 56

I suppose Isaiah was a lying false prophet in your opinion, just like you obviously must assume about Ezekiel.

FAILURE!

no priests,

—————————-

This is simply false. We have plenty of them today. It’s your problem to deal with the numerous mentions of Priests who will be in attendance in the 3rd Temple in the future as related in numerous chapters of Ezekiel – 44 being just one of those chapters. Good luck!

there is now only a Rabbinical (teaching) Judaism,

—————————-

There is no such thing as “Rabbinic Judaism”.

This is a revisionist historical fallacy of christians, not much different than the claims made by the Saducees. It serves your purpose.

and only the lowly local synagogue is left.

————————————–

Lowly? According to historians, the use of synagogues can be traced back at least to the time of Solomon’s 1st Temple. Read here, for example. They were abundant during the Babylonian exile and were just as relevant during the entire period of the 2nd Temple.

“Lowly”? Where in the NT did you find a recommendation to belittle synagogues? Careful! I know where you can find NT verse belittling people in synagogues but the synagogues themselves?????

———————————

The new Rabbinical Judaism looks strangely different from the robust Judaism in the OT, I’d say.

———————————

I’d say:

1. There is no new or old “Rabbinical Judaism”.

2. Judaism is not essentially different today than it was in the past, except that we are nowhere near the levels of spiritual achievement of the loyal Jews of old.

3. You show that you are consistently ignorant of Jewish history, scripture, law and custom.

The Muslims are perched there on the former Temple site with their Dome of the Rock. This blocks any future rebuilding of the Temple, at least, until the apostate time warned about in the latter part of the Book of Revelation. Clearly God has set Himself against you. At least for the past 2,000 years.

————————

There is no need for any of your books. Again, pay attention to Ezekiel 37 and elsewhere in the Tanach, where all of this was foretold hundreds of years before the advent of christianity.

And I am more than a match for Protestants.

———————-

I’ll be very frank:

No you’re not. Certainly not from my discussions with Protestants. Don’t flatter yourself.

The future is wide open. Both in women, and converts.

How lowly of you:

“But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
– Matthew 5:28

How lowly of you all:

“All right, then; I did not make myself a burden to you, but, trickster that I am, I caught you by trickery.”
– 2 Corinthians 12:16

Indeed, dimwits for jesus. You just keep proving the point.

Shy Guy on January 21, 2010 at 5:27 am

As a Christian (pace, Shy Guy), I have to regretfully agree with Debbie’s summation on the plight of the Copts in Egypt. There’s no excuse for their anti-Semitism, although high-brow psychologists would probably attribute their attitude to the so-called Stockholm Syndrome; as a tiny minority in a sea of hostile Muslims, they probably feel compelled to take sides against the Jews. Given the European history of Jewish persecution, that’s only part of the reason, of course.
However, the mindset of Copts in Egypt is a perfect metaphor for elites in the West. Make nice…nay, bend over backwards to accommodate Islamist demands in Western society in the hope that they’ll be left alone in the brave new Caliphate envisioned by jihadists.
Thus we have a situation in Obama’s US where, rather than offend suspicious-looking Middle Eastern gentlemen between 19 and 30 and hypocritical CAIR loudmouths, TSA officials humiliate innocent Americans to the point of strip-searching eight-year-old boys (http://www.patriotupdate.com/stories/read/6204/Video-Young-Boy-strip-searched-by-TSA-)just to prove they’re above racial profiling. In their naivety, members of the Obama administration charged with keeping the country safe fail to realize Islamists would dearly love to behead all infidels–even Democrats.

waltzfool on November 22, 2010 at 8:36 pm

I can’t believe it’s been almost a year since. I love my coptic people and if you're a human being, you should feel some sort of sympathy for the people who lost thier sons, nephew's, brothers etc… whether they are Coptic,Muslim or Jewish. We are all living on this Earth together, and I'm sure we're all trying to get to the same place…we're all just taking different routes.

Maggie on December 26, 2010 at 8:48 pm

“if you’re a human being, you should feel some sort of sympathy for the people who lost thier sons, nephew’s, brothers etc… whether they are Coptic,Muslim or Jewish.”

Maggie,
So.. according to your own criteria copts (and muslims) are not human beings, right?
Maybe “we’re all trying to get to the same place”, but I don’t think that inocents must be killed and persecuted for us to achieve that. Muslims – and aparently copts – disagree.

Funny how my father – who “left” Egypt in 57 – can actually say good things about a few muslims, but never heard him say the same about copts…

Good to see that other english-speaking sites (the only one I knew is http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/) are talking about the real refugees in the middle east conflict.

Kobi on January 4, 2011 at 12:25 pm

Well I see alot of racist attitudes in here. I am a canadian white woman who is christian and whose family came to north america as a first settler in 1630 so therefore we have more rights than any other group in canada. Canada is 85% christian and so is america, so no other religion really matters since it is the christians who made north america and developed all the laws, churches, schools, and of course we did it all in a few hundred years. We are the most progressive people on the planet earth!

Jane on December 14, 2011 at 4:47 pm

Dear Debbie,

I speak to you as an ex-Copt living in the USA. You say that Coptic persecution of Jews was abundant and that Copts, to this day, are fanatic anti-Semites. Where do you draw this from? Could you direct me to a website or perhaps recommend a book I could read on the subject? I’m not calling you a liar or anything. Quite the contrary, I have an admiration for you and your brutal honesty. I’m just curious because as far as I can tell, most Copts I know, if not all, are very supportive of Israel and the Jews as a whole. My father was cheering for Israel during Operation Cast Lead! My closest friends are Persian Jews and Israelis and I love them dearly.

I watched that interview with Pope Shenouda and I unequivocally condemn his rhetoric but keep in mind that he may have said those things to appease Muslims who have been slaughtering Christians. If there are any other instances of Coptic anti-semitism then I am deeply sorry and I hope you accept my apology on behalf of myself and other Copts who sincerely love the Jewish people and the state of Israel. If anything, Copts should view themselves as being in the same fight as the Jews against Islamic terror.

My mother is Maronite Catholic from Lebanon but fled to Egypt with her mother, father and sister during the Lebanese civil war. Her two brothers, however, stayed in Lebanon and fought alongside Israel against the PLO and other Muslim militias. They always told me how the Israelis were true heros and soldiers of incredible conscience and humanity.

My father who is Coptic Orthodox has never liked Muslims or Arabs for that matter and always encouraged me to build relations with Jews as he saw them as being the greatest contributors Science, Medicine, etc. He truly loves the Jews and would probably even serve in the IDF if he had the chance!

As for myself, I’m a 24 year old living on my own in Los Angeles currently making a living off being a private personal trainer. I am in school and will graduate within the next year with my BA in Political Science. I call myself an ex-Copt and for that matter, an ex-Christian as well. I left the Church and Christianity as a whole because I saw too many holes within the faith and could never bring myself to believe in anything more Agnosticm no matter how hard I tried. I simply believe in God and choose to leave it at that. I did/do have some complaints about Copts though. Copts (the ones in America anyway)can come off as incredibly arrogant, boastful, self-righteous and closed-minded. I never really felt accepted in their community due to being half Lebanese and truth be told, I’m not what you would consider the average Copt or Middle Eastern person. I like rock n roll, I have a lip piercing, I prefer to use my creativity rather than my book knowledge etc. It’s probably why I love Jews and get along with them so well. They just have this sense of humanity and although very book smart, they aren’t afraid to be different and are the most creative in my opinion which only helps me in my search for myself. Two years ago, I made my first trip to Israel with my Israeli girlfriend (now ex, no hard feelings). I fell in love with the country and I can’t bare the sight or thought of Israel ceding anymore of their beautiful country to bloodthirsty Muslims terrorists. The art, culture, language- EVERYTHING about Israel is majestic and I truly hope that one day Eretz Yisrael’s neighbors will stop fighting her and embrace her.

Again, I say to you that I offer my sincerest apology to you, Debbie and the Jewish people for any anti-semitism that Copts have displayed. They are fools and have no idea what a blessing Israel and the Jewish people are to this world. I, however, do know and am very thankful to have as many as I do in my circle of friends.

I sincerely hope you reply to this or at least read what I have to say.

Love,

Michael

P.S: Am Yisrael Chai!!!

🙂

Michael on February 14, 2012 at 10:08 am

Not all Copts are Anti-Semitic. I am Coptic, and I don’t hate Jewish people! In fact, my entire family is Coptic, and none of them hate Jews!

I advise you to be more wise, and to quit making dumb stereotypes, about an entire group of people! Stereotypes are always stupid!

Abanoub on June 13, 2012 at 2:32 am

Also, I have a friend, who is Jewish.

Abanoub on June 13, 2012 at 2:32 am

All copts can go to hell, they are worms and scum, my family the aghions built schools and hospitals in Egypt and they repaid the Jews of Egypt with pogroms and expulsions…
F**k all copts they should burn in hell.

Philllll on September 24, 2012 at 4:39 pm

The remarks about the Copts betray the same collective responsibility doctrine that Islamic terrorists use to justify
murder. I’ve met Copts, Irnaians and Moslems in the UK and in Sweden, where I lived for many years and I can honestly say that
there is probably more anti-Semitism and anti-Israel feeling among Europeans.
Ms Sclussel is of course a hard-line Republican and thus approves of such democratic and constitutional polices as torture, detention without trial, denial of due process,
an ever-increasing policing role for the military in both the UK and the USA, and indifference to and approval of collateral dmage, i.e. civilian casualties caused by Western military action in Pakistan and Afghanisation, including high-altitude bombers and drones etc etc.

If you believe in Jewish values such as compassion and the obligation to preserve life where ever possible, I cannot see
how you can reconcile this with being a Republic. I hate,
loathe and detest the Catholic Church and anti-Semites like Shenouda and the present Pope in Rome, but never forget that individual believers often refuse to toe the party line. In both Italy and Bulgaria, ordinary citizens defied the wishes of the respective regimes in WW2 to save their Jewish communities from deportation to the death camps. Judaism teaches us that we are all responsible as individuals for how we behave. Because an Arab terrorist murders Jews in Israel or elsewhere does not justify my murdering Moslems here in Eastbourne, UK.

Sorry, but being a Republican, an attorney and a talk show host disposes me to feel that she does not share my views as to what constitute core Jewish beliefs.

Barry Appleby on October 22, 2012 at 6:45 pm

Dear Debbie, do you really believe the anti-semitism from Middle Eastern Christians is genuine? You do realize that Muslims twist the Christian’s arms every day if they don’t conform to what Muslims want right?

In the Muslim Middle East, Christians have a choice to make concerning with Israel. You’re either Pro-Israel or Pro-Staying-Alive. Which do you think Christians would realistically choose?

What the Coptic Pope Shenouda says against Jews isn’t genuine and he does not mean it.

Why are you so heartless on something Christians never had a choice with to begin with? If a Christian in the Middle East tells Muslims that they’re for Israel, that Christian will be harmed or killed.

Christians in the Middle East never truly hated Jews. You say that whatever war happens that you hope the war leaves Jews alone but Muslims will never leave Jews alone…

Muslims are instructed by the Qur’an to hunt down every last Jew. All the Muslims need is a motivation and plan to simply swarm every side of Israel…

Kevin on May 17, 2017 at 8:51 pm