WHYME says:
I do not speak for our moderator so I will let her answer on her own. But I do have an answer to Muslims, who, like you, when faced with some brutal truths about what Islam looks like when exposed to the light of day, suggest non-believrs have some final, violent solution to the problem.
My, non-violent, non-confrontational suggestion would start with this:
* Islam is a mortal threat to our civilization.
* But we cannot destroy Islam.
* Nor can we democratize Islam.
* Nor can we assimilate Islam.
* Therefore the only way to make ourselves safe from Islam is to separate ourselves from Islam.
(from L. Auster http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/006854.html )
It is called Seperationism. It doesn’t have to be a violent sepration.
But what will happen, probably, if the U.S. seperates itself from parts of the Muslim world, in places such as Iraq, where the forces of Sunni & Shia muslims refuse to play nicely in their sandbox for example, will probably, do more violence unto themselves in the name of Allah, than the army of any peace loving nation.

Leave Iraq Now on April 20, 2007 at 10:43 am

Leave Iraq Now:
Let me point out just a few of the ways you got it wrong:
1.) I did not defend the statements of Hijji, I pointed out that he is not from Virginia Tech and that VT Muslims were asking other VT muslims to pray for the victims. In addition, pushback to Hijji statements came from VT muslims. That makes the headline and Debbie’s added text simply untrue. VT students were not up in arms about being asked to pray for victims by another Muslim, that simply is just not true.
2.) No, I’m not a Muslim and have no idea why you would assume I am.

TheHonorableMemberFromGSPM on April 20, 2007 at 10:46 am

i see gspm… but the thing is Democracy does run in Islam… the only problem is muslims dont practice it. In Islam itself there is a culture vs religion war. Many idiots justify their culture obligations with Islam .. Islam says men are the protectors of woman but all that wife beating, opression etc is done by ignorant muslims. What alot of non muslims do is they do not see the distinction. Second Islamic countries arent even practicing the right kind of government… A caliph is elected into office and is suppose to lead the affairs. Unfortuantley the true caliphs died out long ago. You should really read about them. I think the world can live peacefully with Islam… NO NOT BY THE WHOLE WORLD BEING ISLAMISIZED … i think people on both sides need to realize and respect each other’s beliefs

WHYME! on April 20, 2007 at 11:00 am

Leave Iraq Now, that would have been a solution prior to mass Muslim immigration to Europe, Britain, Russia, Australia, Canada and the U.S. Now they are among us, rapidly proliferating. They are still a small minority in America so we have a chance of surviving, but Europe is surely going to die. Read the blogger Fjordman (Scandinavian journalist), While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer, and Eurabia by Bat Ye’or, and Londonistan by Melanie Phillips, as well as America Alone by Mark Steyn. Learn about what is happening to their governments, their military, and their civilian populace. The crime rate is skyrocketing, and the perpetrators are Muslim.
It is ominous. Massive deportation back to their Islamic countries of origin is the only solution that does not involve violence. There will be a bloodbath in Europe and Britain in the next decade due to civil war. Many political commentators have predicted this.
I’m just wondering how our leaders could have been so extremely ignorant. This is not a religion; this is a fascist ideology, as evil and destructive as any other in history.

AmericanJewess on April 20, 2007 at 11:04 am

Why Me, respect is earned.

AmericanJewess on April 20, 2007 at 11:06 am

So American Jewess,
You’re saying that the 25,000 Iraqis that are coming our way is actually going to hurt this country???
You don’t say?? Are any of you alarmed about this or am I the only one?
Do we not have any say if these people come into our country??

TheAwakenedOne on April 20, 2007 at 11:18 am

door swings both ways americanjewess … until both sides “properly educate” themselves of each others culture and religion there will be no progress.

WHYME! on April 20, 2007 at 11:22 am

evil fascist ideology *yawn* wow a couple more words and you are on your way to a hollywood thriller

WHYME! on April 20, 2007 at 11:24 am

WHYME
That was a fantastic bit of History revisionism. The true Caliphs, which all Sunnis regard as Mohammed’s companions who succeeded him – Abu Baqr, Umar, Uthman and Ali – were all Jihadists, who destroyed all traces of non-Muslim civilization throughout the middle East. Osama, Zawahiri, Haniah and Nasrallah are their worthy successors.
The only reason the prophet didn’t send his men to fly planes into buildings was that planes weren’t invented. Otherwise, he had no compunctions conducting massacres that would have made Elie Hobeika (of Sabra and Chattilla fame) look like Mother Teresa – like the aftermath of the battle of Khaybar Oasis, et al.
Islam has enough parallels with Nazism. Only difference is that with the Nazis, Jews didn’t have the option of converting. The solution is not a massacre, but separation – expel all Muslims in bilad ul Kafir to dar ul Islam, and withdraw all Infidels from Muslim lands. Then let them do what they like within those lands.
Leave Iraq now
You are right – we should leave Iraq, but not for the reasons that the Leftist moonbats want us to. We should do it because all our objectives are met – Saddam, his sons and Zarqawi are all dead, Iraq has had its referanda and elections, and now, it’s up to them. The resolution about whether Abu Baqr or Ali was Mohammed’s rightful successor is a cruel proposition to put to American troops. Let the practitioners of Ashura as well as the beheading and torture merchants in Iraq resolve that themselves, and let all their neighbors join and help them. Less OPEC cash financing dawa and jihad here – they cannot just let Baghdad fall like Damascus to the ‘Rafidite dogs’.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 11:26 am

wow that was a chock full… infidel pride. Just to make it clear for the trillionth time:
SUICIDE WILL BAN YOU FROM HEAVEN
KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE DOES NOT JUSTIFY ANYTHING NOT EVEN SUICIDE
The other thing … i never understood the logic of this … WHY THE HELL WOULD MUSLIMS WANT OTHERS TO CONVERT TO ISLAM IF THE PEOPLE THEY ARE FORCING THEY DONT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE RELIGION?

WHYME! on April 20, 2007 at 11:37 am

nazis where chrisitans why… dont you call them fanatics … b/c they followed a distorted ideology…

WHYME! on April 20, 2007 at 11:39 am

sorry i didnt word that correctly….
Nazis where christians. They commited evil acts. So is christianity evil .. answer: no .. we call the them facists because they believed in an evil ideology

WHYME! on April 20, 2007 at 11:44 am

Jaillibby2, um, maybe because the topic is about Islam and its extremely negative impact on the entire world, and not about individual murder cases? Can you try to stay on topic? Otherwise, we’ll all be all over the map because there are SO many topics in the world, infinite, really.
Posted by: AmericanJewess
Don’t act like a spoiled brat, AmericanJewess. If you’re going to point out that a Muslim Nobel Prize winner was killed by Muslim extremists, then I had every right to point out that a Jewish Nobel Prize winner was in fact killed by a Jewish extremist. Of course you didn’t mention it for the sake of your propaganda.
The topic is about the so-called outrage over “VTech Muslims Upset Over Request to Pray for Non-Muslim Victims” not which religion has the most Nobel Prize winners.
I suggest you stay on topic and stop acting like a two year old.

jaillibby2 on April 20, 2007 at 11:52 am

AmericanJewess
I am familar with the books and authors cited and am fully aware of Eurabia problem. In fact, Fjordman is also a proponent of Seperationism.
The thesis of Steyn’s book, (as the Title of the book suggests), America Alone may be the only country left to survive Islamification of the world. I agree.
I write off Europe. Deport a few million Muslims. huh? If the rest of the Muslim world was offended by cartoons, what do you think the other billion or so will do when the learn of such deportation policies? As the following shows, the majority of the native Europeans refuse to even acknowledge the problem, let alone take some sensible steps to solve the problem.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070419/wl_afp/eujusticeracism
To: the honorablememberofGSPM:
My apologies sir, I re-read your post. At first it appeared you were apologizing for the “Dean”.

Leave Iraq Now on April 20, 2007 at 12:00 pm

Oh sorry, I made a mistake in my last post.
Najib Mahfooz was maimed not murdered by Islamic fundamentalists.

jaillibby2 on April 20, 2007 at 12:17 pm

WhyME ( I really think this is a cry for pity, and what you really mean is “Why DONT YOU LIKE ME” )says:
WHY THE HELL WOULD MUSLIMS WANT OTHERS TO CONVERT TO ISLAM IF THE PEOPLE THEY ARE FORCING THEY DONT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE RELIGION?
Muslims (them, those guys, the ones across the street, not you, of course) may not really “want” to convert non-believers. But Islam commands “them” to. See Sura 9:5, 8:39, 9:29.
First of all, the command of the Koran is to KILL all the unbelievers. Conversion to Islam is another option. As a third and last option, if the “people of the book” (non-muslims) still do not convert, then Islam will “tolerate” another religion and allow you to live under Islamic rule as long as you submit to paying the Jizya. A special tax for those who chose the third option for the privlige of being allowed to exist in the same universe as
Muslims. Such a deal.
These options, which Allah the most merciful has garnted, are often cited by Islamic scholars as examples of Islam’s “longstanding tradition” of freedom of Religion.
You think I exagerrate and point to medevil practices and these things don’t really occur. Well, look at this:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016114.php#comments
and you can see, it goes on every day.
You think these words of the holy books aren’t still used and cited in todays world? It is why in the days before 9/11 Osama Bin Laden distributed a video announcing that the U.S. will be given one last chance to convert to Islam, or else…

Leave Iraq Now on April 20, 2007 at 12:36 pm

For separationism to even be attempted, one thing has to happen – Every non-muslim gov’t in the world would have to declare that Islam is indeed NOT a religion of peace and that Muslims must be removed from our society in order for us to keep our freedoms. Does anybody actually think that today’s PC can do that radical a 180??
The cartoon riots should have been a huge wake-up call as to the massive chip Muslims have on their shoulder. If we ever gather the collective courage to admit that Islam is incompatible with 21st century secularism, the Muslim world will explode. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, will die in world-wide riots pertetrated by the practioners of peace.
At least then the PC among us would be forced to remove their heads from the sand.

stevecanuck on April 20, 2007 at 12:47 pm

This discussion needs to be conducted in the general US population. Can’t someone, anyone, get it there??

TheAwakenedOne on April 20, 2007 at 12:58 pm

Your list of Jewish nobel prize winners is extensive and it certainly appears as though Jews are God’s chosen people, even despite how their race has been diluted with mixing and such over years. Unfortunately, I made a post about the events, you made a post about the number of Nobel prize winners of each religion, which is completely irrelevant. The number of Nobel prize winners does not mean a race or a people are more or less worthy of existence. That argument is preposterous and if that were the case then you would be arguing for less civil rights for all races and peoples, including Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. based on the fact that they have won less per capita Nobel Prizes. Which I hope you’re not, becuase that type of Jewish supremacism would by most accounts be fascist. Frankly, it doesn’t matter what I say about Muslim contributions to the world, you would refute them all and make some inane point about how it adds to “jihadism” and how I need to leave a “tyrannical death cult.” I am saddened at how, apparently an American Jewish female, are calling for separation and mass deportation, which was ironically enough being called for your people not but 60 years ago. I ask you, if you live in America, how many Muslims you have met that said they condone terrorism? Indeed, you probably have met few to no muslims, and I suspect you will respond by saying I don’t need to meet a muslim, I see them on TV doing this and that and etc, simply dodging the question. Even if we take your argument at face value, how much of the entire muslim world do you think is comprised of these so-called “jihadists” and “tyrannical” individuals? Perhaps 0.01%? Probably far less than that. I do not doubt the existence of those who do seek separation, who do hate Jews, who do wish to seek to impose themselves on to the West. However, they are in the vast minority, and if you continue to doubt that then you are simply blinded by your ignorance and hate. I can say that one Muslim you left off your list, the recent Nobel Prize winner Muhammad Yunus, is making headway in the area of decreasing poverty in the world. However, I’m sure his contribution will somehow be disgraced by you.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 2:03 pm

WHYME
It’s pretty early in the morning for taqiyya. Sure, Islam forbids suicide. It also asserts that ‘martyrdom operations’ that involve killing Infidels, and getting killed in the process, like suicide bombers, is martyrdom, and not suicide. And it’s by no means restricted to ‘Palestine’ – it’s practiced in Chechnya and Kashmir as well.
Leave Iraq Now above is also correct. Besides, there are plenty of verses in the Quran that explicitly state Islam’s mission statement – converting the entire world for Islam – Q2:190-193, Q2:217, Q9:33. As for the part about suicide, try Q9:111. Mohammed’s sole objective was to get everyone to deify him: Allah was just a convenient sock-puppet who endorsed anything and everything he wanted to do – from coveting his daughter-in-law to a 6 year old to keeping for himself the bulk of the booty that his men robbed from Meccan caravans. Had Mohammed been alive today, there would have been a bounty on his head.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 2:16 pm

Serp
How many Muslim residents in the West do you seriously expect to openly state what they really think about Infidels? “Hi, Ryan, Iíd like to see you either convert to Islam or die because you are a repugnant Infidel?”
There have been all too many reports, including by Debbie here, on how Muslims say one thing for public consumption, and another within the closed doors of mosques. As Mohammed said (quoted by Bukhari), “War is deceit”. And it isn’t just Jews who are at the receiving end of the world’s longest running Nazi campaign: Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs have all been at the receiving end of their campaign. We want Muslims out of our lands completely – bloodlessly if possible.
For those of us who know our history, we know what there is to know about Islam. For those of us who don’t, 9/11 either taught, or should have taught us what we need to know about Islam.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Infidel Pride, It’s also early in the morning for utter ignorance, but that hasn’t stopped anyone here recently. Unfortunately, all the qur’anic verses that you mentioned have been discussed in great detail prior as to their context and meaning. I know that it may be hard for you to believe that their is context and history to qur’anic verses, but in fact there is. You must have picked up those verses cookie-cutter from any number of conservative blogs to prove how Islam is a “death-cult” or variation thereof and are now parading them around like global truth about Islam’s mission for the world. I would suggest to you that you actually ask a Muslim scholar about the verses at your local mosque (and don’t respond with “all muslims are terrorists” or some variation) and try to find out truth for yourself. It is unfortunate that you and Debbie have little understand of even basic Islamic practice such as that of taqiyya, which is paraded around as a universal ability of all Muslims to lie to Christians. Please, do not use Islamic terms and principles which you had defined to you by some blog or conservative website, get them defined for you by Muslims.
Peace.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 2:25 pm

I wasn’t aware Infidel Pride that you had the ability to read Muslim minds, that’s quite a gift, perhaps you should join the CIA. There in fact are very few credible reports on how Muslims say one thing, and then say another behind closed door’s at mosques; an “undercover” report by Debbie posing as a devout muslim is laughable. Particularly from a woman who would take any criticism of the state of Israel as anti-semitism, anti-Americanism, and jihadism. “We want Muslis out of our lands completely?” You now somehow speak for the entire non-Muslim world, again an impressive feat. It is clear you have but an ignorant knowledge of Islam, you picked it up from some conservative website whose goal it is to deport all Muslims. You saw the actions of a few muslims on September 11th and based an entire religion on those actions; that type of stereotyping is unacceptable in the West. I would suggest you actually meet Muslims in your local community before you jump to ridiculous conclusions about all of them. I pray that you gain a deeper understanding of all people and let go of your hate.
Peace and Love.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 2:33 pm

Serp asks:
I did and they are.
Reach over and pick up a few of those holy books you have, I’m sure, sitting next to your bed. Do you need someone to point out to you which chapter page and verse you need to see?

Leave Iraq Now on April 20, 2007 at 2:38 pm

Serp asks:
Please, do not use Islamic terms and principles which you had defined to you by some blog or conservative website, get them defined for you by Muslims.
I did and they are.
Reach over and pick up a few of those holy books you have, I’m sure, sitting next to your bed. Do you need someone to point out to you which chapter page and verse you need to see?

Leave Iraq Now on April 20, 2007 at 2:41 pm

Serp
One more thing – what is your evidence that this is a tiny minority of extremists? Muslims are expected to endorse all of Mohammed’s teachings. How do you know which ones they do or don’t? How do you know when a Muslim is moderate? The only ‘moderate’ Muslims I know of are those like Ali Sina, Walid Shoebat and some others who have read everything that the Quran endorses, and were so turned off by it all that they jettisoned Islam altogether. I have no problems welcoming such people (although, it must be recognized that Jihadis could try the above as a ruse to infiltrate Infidel societies).
It is argued that only a ësmall percentageí of Muslims believe in the goals of political Islam. Recent polls prove otherwise. The results from NOP Research [39a], broadcast by Channel 4-TV on August 7, are startling.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml
* Almost one in four British Muslims believe that last year’s 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror.
* When asked, “Is Britain my country or their country?” only one in four say it is.
* Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law.
* According to the report, “Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws.” Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This compares with last year’s Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.
* Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed.
* Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who “insult Islam.”
* When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not.
* “Hardcore Islamists” constitute nine percent of the British Muslim population.
* A slightly more moderate group is composed of “staunch defenders of Islam.” This second group comprises 29 percent of the British Muslim population. Individuals in this group aggressively defend their religion from internal and external threats, real or imagined.
* The scary reality is that only three percent of British Muslims “took a consistently pro-freedom of speech line on these questions.”
Please don’t give us the ‘that’s only in Britain’ argument.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 2:43 pm

Serp
I don’t need to read their minds. I’ve read their texts, seen some of their websites, and yes, I’ve met Muslims in my life both in India and here. I don’t expect people who have hostile views about us Infidels to actually state it until they are in a position of power and authority, like in Egypt or Pakistan.
I don’t claim to speak for all, or even most non-Muslims. That’s different from recognizing Islam as a threat to all non-Muslims – athiests, agnostics, christians, jews, hindus, zoroastrians, mandeans, et al.
Also, in response to your assertion that I owe my position to ‘conservative websites’, in countries that Islam is dominant, traditional constituents of the Left – Gays, Feminists, Animal-Rights activists – to name a few, would be completely squelched. Palestinian gays generally flee to Israel, because they know that they are targets for Jihadi activists. We all know what the status of women is in Islam – according to the Quran 2:223, ones wife is a tilth. I don’t know what your gender is, but if you’re a woman, then once Muslims become dominant, get ready to don a black jilbab, stop working and whatever else you are doing, and become a breeding machine. It is ironic that the Left acts as apologists for Muslims, when so many of their key constituents would lose everything they had struggled so hard for to date – from the vote to the right to drive a car (look at KSA) to the right to work or choose whether to marry or not, or to whom.
I suggest you educate yourself about this subject properly, instead of just tossing Leftist slogans my way.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 2:54 pm

As usual, a Muslim (serp) fires the out-of-context silver bullet expecting it end the debate. OK serp, let’s talk context.
Both 39:27 and 47:3 tell us that the Qur’an is presented as a set of parables and similitudes. They are stories with a moral. Otherwise, what would be the point of telling stories or making proclamations that only apply to the early 7th century?
The Qurían is simply one very long sermon consisting of stand-alone proclamations. For example, how can the meaning of ìGod does not love infidels (3:32)î be mitigated by context? Also, simple logic dictates that God would not have sent to Mohamed a revelation that was neither a general truism nor meant to stand forever.
Apparently Osama bin Laden agrees, as he extracted 18 complete or partial quotes from the Qurían in his declaration of war against the west without the slightest nod to context. Also on board is Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the Al-Azhar fatwa committee. He described 20 bad traits of Jews as described by verses in the Qurían with no attempt to frame them in terms of context.

stevecanuck on April 20, 2007 at 3:01 pm

I am not tossing “leftist” slogans your way. You quote selectively from their texts and are taken to generalizing about an entire religion and a diverse people from the actions of a few. Muslims are dominannt in many countries, and yet, a jilbab is not required, and are not breeding machines so you’re point is rendered moot, and even if they were, it would not be a practice reflective of Islam, rather of the cultural norms passed down.
Peace and Love.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 4:47 pm

I am glad, stevecanuck, that you can fancy yourself a muslim scholar and one who understands in and out the qur’an after brief and hasty study. Even those who study it for years and are fluent in Arabic have difficulty elucidating the Qur’an completely, and yet you who probably have no fluency in Arabic, read a badly translated Qur’an are now free to quote in and out of a badly translated Qur’an that which you see fit to bolster yoru point; I am sorry but unless you have some sort of scholarly study in this are, you are just an average joe with little understanding but a whole lot of opinion.
Peace.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 4:50 pm

Way to change the subject, serp. Just what did I say that’s wrong? You didn’t answer the question either, so here it is again, “How can ‘God does not love infidels’ be mitigated by context? Did bin Laden quote the Qur’an 18 times without regard to context or not? Next time, try a rebuttal that’s a little more than a simple, “is not!!”.
The other silver bullet you just fired is also a dud, dude. And that’s the old “ya gotta be an Islamic scholar to understand the Qur’an”. More nonsense.
To suggest that God would make his final communication with Man difficult to understand makes no sense whatsoever. The Qurían was revealed to a semi-literate merchant in his own language specifically so he could spread Godís word to the common man in clear and certain terms. Sura 19:97 not only says as much, but serves as an example as it states, ìSo have I made the Qurían easy in thine own tongueî. How could scholarly interpretation make that more clear? More evidence of Godís intended simplicity comes from the final revelation, ìThis day have I perfected your religion for youî. It doesnít say, ìThis day have I sent to you a cryptogram decipherable only by the most learnedî.

stevecanuck on April 20, 2007 at 6:31 pm

Serp
Okay. Go ahead and give me the contexts for the verses I cited above – don’t just tell me to talk to a Muslim scholar (I know I’d get one thing from him as an infidel, and another if I were to recite the shehada). Islamic scholars normally do so in the context of the Sunnah – the sahih hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim, the sirah of Ibn Ishaq and the Tafseer of Ibn Khatir, Ibn Juzaid, et al. You are right – the contexts are important – particularly given the fact that you have different verses of the Quran contradicting each other (e.g. 2:256 vs 2:193 – two ayats in the same surah). Point is – when one does analyze the contexts using the sunnah, it’s the worse interpretation – not the better one – that usually prevails.
Steve Canuck gave you some verses. Here is one you might want to provide the context for:
9:28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
Go ahead – enlighten us!

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 6:58 pm

Please stevecanuck, I ask kindly that you not cheapen sincere debate by making assumptions about an individual (“As usual a muslim..fires a bullet…expecting it to end debate”) I am doing no such thing; rather I would like to debate you honestly and openly. I am sorry stevecanuck, but I’m not sure what’s wrong with God saying he does not love those who reject his existence? I am certain I could find a similar message in any scripture. However, simply because that line exists in the Qur’an does not make it justifiable to slaughter non-believers as you seem to think; there are many passages which prevent that kind of killing. And yes, unfortunately, bin Laden did quote the Qur’an selectively and out of context in order to serve his means; such is obvious and made plain and simple many times already. Osama bin Laden, prior to his newfound religious experience, was hardly a religious man; he was living the life of any rich brat in the early to mid 90s. His experience with religion came tainted with the turmoils of politics. And in fact, many muslims believe that you do you have to have deep understanding and thought into understanding the Qur’an, despite them having fluency in the language. That’s why they go to religious scholars for clearer interpretation and understanding. The verse to which you refer to does say the Qur’an is made easy, but only because it has been transmitted in Arabic, not that its meaning is patently clear to every joe schmoe who picks it up and reads it. And the “final revelation” as you quote from does not refer to just the qur’an but the entirety of relevation from the torah to the gospel to the qur’an; hardly an intention of the simplicity from God (also, please stop trying to be able to interpret the intentions of God in a language you probably don’t understand). The Qur’an has passages in it and it is known among the scholarly world that it is those who study and follow the Qur’an who are best able to extract the information from it and understand its meaning; it is not as simple as reading a translation and quoting some verses to prove a random point. I am curious what translation you are using; judging from your quotes, I’m going to guess the Dawood version?

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 6:58 pm

Infidel pride said
“We all know what the status of women is in Islam”
So while in india did you not see the maltreatment of indian women. Hindus hold such disregard for female life that some 500000 female lives each year are claimed through selective sex abortion.
How about the little girls as young as 12 who are forced to become child prostitutes by their relatives (fathers/husbands)
Girls as young as 8 are married off to men often 3x older than them ( child bride is a big phenominon in India).
Hindus commit the worst kind of hatred and bigotry against their own people the dalit( The untouchables)
In india homosexuality is ILLEGAL and if caught carries a sentence of upto 10 years, yet you are more concerned by the persecution of homosexuals by muslims.
And if muslims are so evil towards hindus, then why a hindu country India has elected a muslim president Abdul Kalam. Similarly a hundu in pakistan was recently appointed as the chief justice of pakistan by the HOSTILE president Musharraf.
If muslims regard their women worthless then how do Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey and Indonesia (so called extremist muslim countries) all of them have or had muslim women as prime ministers or presidents in recent years.
Muslims by large DO recognise that they have extremists amidst them but the media rarely reports their opposition to these individuals. For example recently there have been large demonstration in Pakistan against extremism but these kinds of event rarely make any headlines elsewhere.
Stevecanuck you demonstrate your hate and bigotry against muslims using your distorted views and support them by posting quranic verses without their history and context.
OBL did indeed quote quranic verses, however if you read the Quranic commentary of some of these verses it is intersting that he quotes them to declare to call on Muslims to fight Jews and Christians (verse 9.2) which actualy refers to “mushrikeen” (idolators), and unless jews and christians are idolators then indeed those verses quoted by OBL are directed at them ( jews and christians are reffered to as ahl al-kitab or �People of the Book in the quran).
Quoting quranic verses as justification for sweeping generalizations about the Islam is far more complex matter and requires a deep knowledge of its history and context.
If I was to post biblical verses here without their history and context then Judaeo-christianity would also appear to be full of violence and hate.
I guess if you go looking for bias you will find it in any direction.

sue-me on April 20, 2007 at 7:06 pm

IP, unfortunately, one does not even need to look to the hadiths for context in many cases, in certain verses Islamic scholars do look to some of those sources. Unfortunately, the two ayats you mentioned I am certain are not in contradiction, you merely intepret them to be because it fits your mindset. And the whole bit about when ayats are interpreted in context of sunnah as looking worse–how do you know? Have you personally done so? As for the ayat you quote, I can’t be certain but I believe it is referring to the Kaaba after it was made into a site of pilgrimage. The pilgrims there undoubtedly would have desired the site clean, whereas the pagans who resided in the area probably did not. But you don’t even have to take my interpretation, please just read an Abdullay Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur’an where all the context will be made plenty evident instead of reading a translation which you deem to best elicit the “ignorance” of the “death cult” of Islam. And please, IP, stop with the I’m sure they tell me one thing as a non-muslim and another if I’m a muslim, there are plenty of your “so-called” enlightened scholars here in the West, and probably at your local mosque, I insist you go to them and ask around about Islam. That is a bogus argument perpetuated by ignorance, an ignorance which I don’t seem to understand as you claim to have met Muslims in the West.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 7:11 pm

I am certain I could find a similar message in any scripture. However, simply because that line exists in the Qur’an does not make it justifiable to slaughter non-believers as you seem to think; there are many passages which prevent that kind of killing. – Serp
Serp – instead of stating that you’re certain you could find similar messages in any scripture, just find and state it. For instance, show us an instance of a verse from the New Testament, the Talmud, the Vedas and the Book of Tao that call on their followers to wage perpetual war on non-members. It’s there in the Quran – 2:193, 8:39 and 9:33 – openly calls for all religions to be destroyed and replaced by Islam. Show us where exactly do Buddhist, Jewish or other traditions do that.
Also, here is another major difference. Most scriptures – like the Bible – are understood to be written by men, and therefore, open to interpretive modification with times. The NT, for instance, was written by Peter, Paul, Luke and John – not by God, and handed over to Jesus. However, the Quran is said to have come directly from Allah to Mohammed, and delivered over several years, and is said to be perfect and permanent. It’s not open to modifications, and in several places in it, Muslims are required to follow Allah by following Mohammed. This is where it gets hairy: to follow the latter, one has to know what he said, what he preached and what he did, and that’s where the Sunnah comes in. And once one is in the realm where the Battles of Badr, Khaybar Oasis, Nakla, et al come in, one can say goodbye to normal morality, since the only morality that matters from the POV of Islam is anything that furthers the cause of Islam.
There are some recent wannabe reformers who’ve tried fixing things with a Quran only approach. Major problem with that is that they have no way of fixing problematic verses in the Quran. But what’s worse is that those who do try and reform Islam – Mohammed Taha, Farha Foda and Rashad Khilafa – are killed for their attempts.
Islam can’t be reformed. It can at best be quarantined away from our societies: if one has the human interests of Muslims themselves at heart, Islam would have to be abolished.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 7:12 pm

Unfortunately, IP, I was referring to that specific line that stevecanuck quoted, not to any verse in the qur’an which allows perpetual war-waging with any non-muslim society: no such qur’anic verse exists. I would ask that if you do see fit to interject in a debate between me and someone else, you do so having actually read the entire debate, not having jumped into the middle of it. All the battles you mention are battles of a largely defesnive nature, again, so following the prophetic example, one would be allowed to defend one’s religion which does not seem irrational to me. Islam does not need reform, for many centuries it was the religion of a people who promoted growth, learning, and prosperity, and it can be once again. Indeed, the best selling poet in the world is Rumi, an Sufi Muslim who writes in the vein of Islamic philosophy, and Muslims make great societal contributions everyday in part due to their faith; so your argument calling for Islam to be quarantined and the generalization about Islam needing to be reformed requires some rerationalization. You are generalizing the actions of a few to make great leaps of thought of a few and a broad faith. I am sorry if your previous interactions with Muslims in India or here were antagonistic and have led you to your present line of thought; however I do hope that you keep trying and peace can be found.
Peace.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 7:24 pm

Sue-me
Nice attempt at tu Quoque, but there’s nothing in Hindu scriptures that equates women to tilths. Both child marriage and female abortions there are illegal, and Hindus don’t put their daughters up into prostitution. The worst that can be said about them is that they marry off their womenfolk early (16 and above, although the law makes the minumum age 18), although even that is changing. And homosexiality isn’t illegal – I don’t know where you got that 10 years from. As far as untouchability goes, caste based quotas/reservations are a big issue there, just as race based quotas are here.
Also, as far as Abdul Kalam goes, the fact that he’s president shows the tolerance of Hindus, not Muslims. Besides, he has been criticized by the Muslim leadership in India for following Hindu practices such as reading the Gita every morning, not fasting during Ramadan, et al.
As far as the women leaders of the countries you mention, Turkey had Tansu Ciller while it was still more secular than it is today. In the other 3 countries that you mention, the women in question were all daughters/widows of male leaders who had such a complete hold on their parties that they pretty much started dynasties – Bhutto in Pakistan, Wajed and Zia in Bangladesh and Sukarnoputri in Indonesia. But look at the general status of women in those countries, and it’s nowhere near that of their leaders.
I am relieved by your revelation that Muslims are not supposed to fight Christians or Jews, but that anyone else is okay. How big of them.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 7:29 pm

Okay, Serp, I’ll respond to you when you are addressing me. To respond to what you said below:
Unfortunately, the two ayats you mentioned I am certain are not in contradiction, you merely intepret them to be because it fits your mindset.
Okay, here are the verses, and with Yusuf-Ali, not Dawood or Hilali-Khan:
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
2: 193 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
Go ahead – reconcile these 2.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 7:36 pm

Correction for my prevous post ( sura 9.5 not 9.2)
9:28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
Some of the Quríanic verses were revealed addressing issues current to that time of history (note the words THIS YEAR in the verse)
Take this out of its historical aspect and context then yes it is interpreted as hateful. If you learn the historical events surrounding this verse then you CANNOT apply it to any situation TODAY.

sue-me on April 20, 2007 at 7:36 pm

Dear IP, while there may be nothing in Hindu scripture to support the practices of some Hindus, it still does occur. And Hindus do indeed put their children into prostitution, I recommed the documentary Born into Brothels. As far as the female leaders argument, they were still put into office regardless of their affiliation; I don’t expect to see one of the Bush daughters into office anytime soon even though they have a political dynasty here. And the fact is, as females, they were still put into office by a largely Muslim population. One of the greatest Indians ever known, Ghandi, admitted himself the beauty of Islam and the tolerance of its message and read the Qur’an everyday. I am sad to see you, a staunch defender of India, attacking Islam where prior to 1947 Muslims and Hindus had lived largely on good terms.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 7:44 pm

I am sorry IP, but again, I do not see the contradiction: the first verse states there is no compulsion in religion, which can also mean a lack of oppression in having to choose a faith. And the second ayat you quote says to fight those who practice oppression and tumult, and in doing so a Muslim can acquire deeper faith in God, and that fighting oppression is the only valid means of expressing hostility. Again, please go to an Islamic scholar or to an imam at your local mosque who can provide an even better answer, I have but a small drop of knowledge of Islam. We could go on and on and back and forth with you quoting verses and me clearing them up for you, but please, don’t take my word for it, just go to a local mosque and ask a local imam or any muslim there frankly who I am sure will be glad to clear up any concerns or questions you may have.
All the Best.

Serp on April 20, 2007 at 7:52 pm

And homosexiality isn’t illegal – I don’t know where you got that 10 years from
Try Section 377 of the Indian penal code.
Hindus don’t put their daughters up into prostitution
ARE YOU SURE
http://www.cybermurid.com/ubbthreads/printthread.php?Board=UBB1&main=2911&type=post
That is just one example, there are many more.
The worst that can be said about them is that they marry off their womenfolk early (16 and above, although the law makes the minumum age 18)
Today, 33% of girls in India are married before they reach the age of 15.
source…
http://www.cafebabel.com/en/article.asp?T=T&Id=8963
While I fully realize that these acts are illegal, they are however practiced openly and freely in india.
But look at the general status of women in those countries, and it’s nowhere near that of their leaders.
So the same could be applied to women in india, they will never be able to aquire the same status as Indira Ghandi. Dont you see the substandard status given to women in those countries is due to cultural issues and not religion. (By the way Bhutto had 2 elder brothers capable of running for prime ministers)
I am relieved by your revelation that Muslims are not supposed to fight Christians or Jews, but that anyone else is okay. How big of them
No anyone else is not OK either. There are other verses, I have just given one verse as an example. Maybe some other time…

sue-me on April 20, 2007 at 8:24 pm

Serp
I’m not a defender of India – after all, it does have a dhimmi leadership. I was merely stating that there is nothing in Hindu scripture that comes remotely close to what’s in the Quran.
As for Gandhi, this naked fakir (thank you, Sir Winston Churchill) was a low-life who called on Hindus and Sikhs to sacrifice themselves for the glory of Islam, and for Jews to not resist the Nazis, but instead commit voluntary suicide. Nathuran Godse – his assassin – did India and humanity a big favor by putting him out of our misery.

Infidel Pride on April 20, 2007 at 9:20 pm

Although I’m sure I’ll be needing a full out flame suit after posting this, it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make. Better that than sit idly by, watching as people strongly motivated by their cause and beliefs, repeatedly cast a cloud of doubt over their motivations by stating things that can be proven invalid.
Invariably when these discussions reach the point of comparing religious teachings and beliefs regarding “non-believers” it will either be inferred or even outright stated that, to paraphrase, “unlike the Quran, no where in the Christian Bible are believers ordered to kill non-believers.”
For example along that line, quoted from Infidel Pride’s post:
“Serp – instead of stating that you’re certain you could find similar messages in any scripture, just find and state it. For instance, show us an instance of a verse from the New Testament, the Talmud, the Vedas and the Book of Tao that call on their followers to wage perpetual war on non-members. It’s there in the Quran – 2:193, 8:39 and 9:33 – openly calls for all religions to be destroyed and replaced by Islam. Show us where exactly do Buddhist, Jewish or other traditions do that.”
Although it is from the Old Testiment, it is there and can be found.
“Deuteronomy 13
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.”

PsychoKat on April 20, 2007 at 11:46 pm

Psychokat.
Very interesting post.
I had not heard or read of that (OT quotes re: violence) before.
Do you know of any particular historic incidents at anytime, where “people of the book” acted on these pronouncements and cited these words as justification for violence? I don’t know of any.

Leave Iraq Now on April 21, 2007 at 11:29 am

Historically speaking yes, the inquisitions.

PsychoKat on April 21, 2007 at 1:26 pm

Whoah there, Serp! I think you’re frothing at the mouth, and I told you not to do that. NO ONE said that failure to win a Nobel Prize should result in one’s extermination. Now where on earth did you pick up that kind of thinking? One wonders. Maybe your religion?
My point is that Islam has had a devastatingly negative impact on EVERY culture that it infects, such that a billion and a half people can’t even curry together 7 Nobel Prizes in several decades of time (remember some of those from Islamic countries actually were awarded to Christians). Doesn’t that astound you? It should, if it doesn’t. What does that tell you about your religion and its impact on one and a half billion people? By contrast, Jews dominate Nobel Prizes, despite being 0.2% of the population; again, that is astounding. Christians make a very respectable showing as well. But okay, let’s forget about Nobel Prizes and let’s just talk about “good works,” because I couldn’t agree more — Nobel Prizes are not all there is. I’m the earth speaking to Islam: “What have you done for me lately?”
Again, you can froth, whine, stomp your feet, recite verses from Edward Said, whatever you want to do, but nothing will change the fact that Muslims have contributed nothing to the world for centuries except terror, oppression, and slaughter.
Whether some Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists or Pagans have behaved badly doesn’t matter, as individuals will be individuals. What matters is whether the ideology PROMOTES and CONDONES evil. Can you understand that? When an Israeli Jew murders an Arab, he goes to trial and then goes to jail, because his people and his religion and his culture do not condone wanton murder. When an American Christian shoots an abortion doctor, he goes to trial and then he goes to jail, because his people and his religion and his culture to not condone wanton murder. When Muslim subhumans in Pakistan gang rape a woman, they get off and the woman gets sentenced to lashings, never mind that she will never find a husband because she is now filth. (Do you think I hate her because she is Muslim? No! I wish I could hug her. I wish I could bring her into my home and give her help and support and show her that she can leave this religious community of evil). When a Muslim father gets paranoid and slashes his daughter’s throat, he is covered in the Koran and is not convicted of any wrongdoing. QUIT IGNORING THE OBVIOUS. Every single Islamic country is guilty of aggregious human rights abuses — EVERY SINGLE ONE. Muslim crime in Britain, Europe, and Scandinavia is epidemic!! Hint: it might have something to do with Islam. Ya think?
No amount of flaming people here, no amount of hiding in the skirtfolds of your Leftist professors, no amount of spewing lies, will change one simple fact: religions and cultures are not equal, and Islam is about as low as they come.

AmericanJewess on April 21, 2007 at 1:36 pm

OMG Debbie, FOX News did a report on a junior headhacker and showed part of the video. The koranimals probably held his mother and sisters in a nearby rape room, just to give him a little extra motivation to overcome any squeamishness he might be feeling. He looks about 12 yrs old.
I cannot believe this. Recruiting CHILDREN to behead people. But we must remember, “these people do not represent Islam.”

AmericanJewess on April 21, 2007 at 2:32 pm

Dear AmericanJewess, I would politely ask that you please refrain from making ad hominem attacks (“frothing at the mouth”, “froth, whine, stomp my feet”) and assumptions about someone you do not know at all. I calmly and clearly responded to your post without calling you crazy, I would appreciate the same respect reciprocated. Again, your Nobel Prizes point is completely moot, it has nothing to do with anything frankly. Again, as I have proved in my posts prior, the human rights abuses which do occur in countries with large Muslim populations are largely due to cultural norms, not religious practice. I understand that point is subtle, and may be hard for you to believe, but indeed, you can read many human rights reports from respected groups such as Amnesty, HRW, and others which will confirm as much. As for every single Islamic country being guilty of human rights abuses, indeed, every Jewish country in this world is guilty of human rights abuses; but no one brands Judaism an evil ideology; even if they may express contempt for Jews. I am not as you say a flaming person, hiding in the skirtfolds of my Leftist professors, or spewing any lies as you claim, rather I am here engaging you in honest and open debate; however you seem to not want to do so. You stating that Muslims have contributed nothing to the world but terror and such is a gross misrepresentation; if you honestly believe that, then you really are blinded by ignorance. I would suggest to you, if you really do live in America, that you go to your local mosque and meet Muslims themselves and form your own opinion instead of judging an entire faith based on the actions of a few you see on TV or read from Debbie. I know that it might be difficult, but just give it a try (and if you decide to respond to this, please come up with something more creative than they’ll try to kill me or some variation). I am sorry for whatever happened to you to make you believe that ALL muslims are completely evil, but its simply not true. Also, the start of this so-called debate happened because I made a valid post re: the article, you made a completely irrelevant post about Jewish Nobel Prize-winners in retort to my original post. Please if you are going to debate me; debate the issue, and do not go off on tangents.
PS. Putting words in Caps does not make your point more valid.
Peace.

Serp on April 21, 2007 at 6:23 pm