I think a lot of the negative perceptions people have of the Mormons probably come from the smaller sects of the religion such as the one run by that Warren Jeffs guy that they just arrested.
Most people don’t know anything about the LDS, so when they see stories like this they assume the whole lot of believers are like this guy.

Manatoch on September 1, 2006 at 3:40 pm

Debbie,
You biffed it on this one. The classy thing to do is retract your statement.
First, you were posted links showing the type of “donations” rendered. They were not cash, they were goods. They were not given generically, they were given specifically. They were not given unsupervised, they were given in cooperation with LDS relief efforts. They did not go into a general fund or get converted to cash, they went directly the muslims affected because LDS missionaries and members were on-site and part of the distribution.
Second, you blast IRW for being a terrorist organization and yet swallow blindly their claims on who their biggest donors are. I guess you only take IRW propaganda as such when you disagree with it.
Thirdly, to quote Ronald Reagan: A starving child knows no politics. It is absolutely disgusting of you to declare the LDS church is immoral because they worked with IRW to save Muslim men women and children from death and suffering in Indonesia and Pakistan. Perhaps your attitude is the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim; they’ll grow up to be terrorists, anyway.
No doubt you would have found a way to get aid to Indonesia without the help of IRW, and, hey, if a few more muslims died because the relief was delayed, well, that’s the unfortunate cost of maintaining the moral high ground, eh?
UH, YOUR CHURCH, NOT ME, NEEDS TO DO THE CLASSY THING, ADMIT THEY FUNDED TERRORISTS THROUGH IRW, APOLOGIZE, AND PLEDGE TO NEVER DO IT AGAIN. IF IT WON’T, THAT TELLS ME EVERYTHING I NEED TO KNOW. I DID NOT “BIFF,” WHATEVER THAT MEANS. I PROVIDED HARD FACTS, NONE OF WHICH HAVE BEEN OR CAN BE REFUTED. YOUR CHURCH GAVE $1.6 MILLION TO A GROUP THAT FUNDS HAMAS. IT DOESN’T MAKE A BIT OF A DIFFERENCE IN WHAT FORM THE DONATION WAS MADE. YOUR CHURCH LEGITIMIZED TERROR. AND YOUR CHURCH’S NAME IS BEING USED BY ISLAMIC RELIEF TO GET MORE DONATIONS FROM OTHERS. AT THE EVENT, I ATTENDED, ISLAMIC RELIEF OFFICIALS SAID LOUDLY AND CLEARLY, “OUT BIGGEST DONOR IS A CHURCH–THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST-LATTER DAY SAINTS, WHICH GAVE US $1.6 MILLION. AND THEY SAY “OUR PARTNERS INCLUDE THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST-LATTER DAY SAINTS,” AND FEATURE YOUR CHURCH’S EMBLEM ON THEIR MATERIALS. IF YOU DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, IT TELLS ME EVERYTHING I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR CHURCH. AFTER ALL, IF YOUR CHURCH HAD GIVEN $1.6 MILLION TO BIN LADEN, BUT IT WAS IN THE FORM OF GOODS, NOT MONEY, THAT WOULD BE OKAY, TOO, RIGHT? IF NOT, WHY IS IT OKAY, HERE? AGAIN, THE CLASSY THING WOULD BE FOR YOUR CHURCH TO ADMIT THEY FUNDED HAMAS BY GIVING $1.6 MILLION IN GOODS TO THIS GROUP, AND TO PROMISE NEVER TO DO IT AGAIN. PLUS, APOLOGIZE. BUT JUDGING BY THE BLIND DEFENSE THE CHURCH’S FOLLOWERS HAVE POSTED HERE AND IN E-MAILS TO ME, I GUESS THAT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. AND IT MAKES ME RETHINK MY HIGH OPINION OF YOUR CHURCH–A GREAT DEAL.
DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL

frgough on September 1, 2006 at 4:06 pm

jon, you are wrong on your first point that I made some “typical anti-mormon” search to specifically find anti-LDS sites. I assure you that is hardly necessary as there are THOUSANDS of them. And your accusing me of being dishonest is equally wrong.
Here is what I did do though: I entered the phrase “Cult of mormonism” (without the quotes) in google and did a search that produced 284,000 hits! My references for Debbie to have a look at were from the very first page I saw. Try it yourself.
My main point is that there is an enormous contention that Mormonism is cultish in some of its teachings as the number of hits on google clearly attests to. I simply wanted to point out to Debbie as a Jewish person, as am I, that there is much disagreement about what Mormonism is and what it isn’t.
As for what I personally believe, which I got from the very site you suggested (http://www.lds.org), I think Mormonism is a cult because I think the entire story concerning Joseph Smith having special revelations from G-d is false. That is my own honest opinion and I am sure yours differs from mine which is fine.
I do agree with Debbie though that the funding of Islamic terrorism by the Mormons or anyone else is an outrage as I said before.

Phoenix on September 1, 2006 at 4:48 pm

Tell me jon, while we are on the topic, which religions are true and which are false. Do Jehovah Witnesses have it right or is it the Lutherans? Is Judaism correct? How about Islam? Maybe it’s the Baptists that are correct in their teachings.

Phoenix on September 1, 2006 at 4:59 pm

To be totally fair to jon, I suggest any Jewish person reading this site go to the very web pages jon himself recommends and do some investigating and searching on your own. See for yourself whether the Mormon religion is compatible with Judaism or Catholicism for that matter.
It is for these reasons I do not like to engage in theological debates on websites like this one. Way too much foundational material must be laid before the finer points of theology can be addressed.

Phoenix on September 1, 2006 at 5:15 pm

Phoenix said “It is for these reasons I do not like to engage in theological debates on websites like this one. Way too much foundational material must be laid before the finer points of theology can be addressed.”
I tend more to the opposite. As you can see from my posts I tend to be very analytical about things. I am open minded, and stay that way when discussing matters of faith and respect the beliefs of others…but. I have never been able to overcome my need to seek the truth and facts enough to firmly believe in something that I can’t prove.
It’s frustrating! I’ve always found subjects like spirts (ghosts), extra terrestrials, UFO’s, ESP etc very interesting, and would like to believe absolutely that some of these things might actually exist (ESP would be cool.)And I keep an open mind about them, because where they cannot be proved to exist neither have they been proven absolutely not to exist.
Religion is much the same for me, there are a multitude of differing beliefs out there, and although no ones been able to offer me absolute proof as of yet to support one set of beliefs over another, or any for that matter, on the other hand neither have I come across absolute proof to discount those ideas.
Sort of like being between rock and hard place.

PsychoKat on September 1, 2006 at 6:07 pm

I don’t know if I’ve ever seen such a volume of posting about a single subject. Probably because this subject is at the very root of so many other topics and problems in our world. I am not a theologian, but I am a recoving Catholic so I feel I may put my opinion…merely an opinion mind you…forward. Personally, I believe that none of the “Christian” religions reflect the true teachings of Jesus. I believe that regardless of what religion any human is, being good vs. evil is paramount to any belief, religion…call it what you want. I believe the Bible is a written record of legends and teachings handed down over numerous hundreds of years, and use huge amounts of symbolism along with facts. Which are which? I believe that depends on your faith. I don’t mean to judge, but I believe that Islam is the one major religion that teaches its members to destroy “the unbelievers”. Jesus said that God is the only being that should/would/could do that. Jesus didn’t ask people to become Christians. That’s a man-made term. He just wanted people to understand and follow his teachings. You don’t have to be a Christian to follow Christ…you just have to be a good person. Am I a Christian? I believe I am, despite not belonging to an organized religion; because I believe in God, I believe in Christ as part of God, and I believe in being good for the sake of being good. I’m not always successful, but I try. We as humans are on converging paths of religions/beliefs…and based on what I have seen of fanatical or even “fundamentalist” Muslims…Christian’s days are numbered, because of the basic tenants of their respective beliefs. Unless the majority of Christians pull their heads out of their butts and see the enemy before them as they are…the whole world will be praying six times a day toward Mecca.

Ziggy Spaz on September 1, 2006 at 7:31 pm

I saw the assertion made a couple of times that the LDS church was funding Islamic terrorists. However, I saw no evidence presented that such was actually the case. Such a serious assertion should be backed up by evidence that can actually be checked by a skeptic.
From some of the comments, it appears that some of the readers are more than willing to accept bald assertions without evidence about the LDS church.
All the more reason for a responsible blogger to provide evidence, and not merely make such assertions.
I PROVIDED EVIDENCE, NONE OF WHICH HAS BEEN REFUTED. YOUR CHURCH GAVE $1.6 MILLION TO A GROUP THAT FUNDS HAMAS. IT DOESN’T MAKE A BIT OF A DIFFERENCE IN WHAT FORM THE DONATION WAS MADE. YOUR CHURCH LEGITIMIZED TERROR. AND YOUR CHURCH’S NAME IS BEING USED BY ISLAMIC RELIEF TO GET MORE DONATIONS FROM OTHERS. AT THE EVENT, I ATTENDED, ISLAMIC RELIEF OFFICIALS SAID LOUDLY AND CLEARLY, “OUT BIGGEST DONOR IS A CHURCH–THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST-LATTER DAY SAINTS, WHICH GAVE US $1.6 MILLION. AND THEY SAY “OUR PARTNERS INCLUDE THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST-LATTER DAY SAINTS,” AND FEATURE YOUR CHURCH’S EMBLEM ON THEIR MATERIALS. IF YOU DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, IT TELLS ME EVERYTHING I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR CHURCH. AFTER ALL, IF YOUR CHURCH HAD GIVEN $1.6 MILLION TO BIN LADEN, BUT IT WAS IN THE FORM OF GOODS, NOT MONEY, THAT WOULD BE OKAY, TOO, RIGHT? IF NOT, WHY IS IT OKAY, HERE.
DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL

Malin on September 1, 2006 at 10:31 pm

sultan_knish
AMAZING! Thanks for those posts, it seems to not only verify Debbie’s story, but pretty much proves they KNEW what they were doing.
I can’t imagine how this will work out for those “Morman-Palestinians” and all the similiar beliefs they find with Isalam. The sword will separate and help define their “faith” as well, I’m sure.

Grateful1 on September 2, 2006 at 3:50 am

This is to Phoenix:
My point about the tablets of the Law wasn’t that they would have necessarily crumbled into dust (I’m referring to the second copy, of course, since Moses broke the first set), but that the location of the ark which contains them has long since been lost. It’s understandable if you consider the history. (I know, the ark is in a warehouse somewhere, in a crate labeled “Tannis Project.” …) With Joe Smith’s tablets, a few of Smith’s close friends said they saw them, then they vanished very promptly — a strange fate for a sacred relic. At least the Jews had the excuse that the Romans smashed Jerusalem. What’s Smith’s excuse?
Now for Jon:
Jon, you must not be a very good Mormon if you’re worshiping Jesus.
Mormon theologian Bruce McConkie: “We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the Scriptures say about worshiping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense-the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator”(“Our Relationship with the Lord,” BYU Devotional, a March 2, 1982 monograph).
McConkie again: “Though Christ is God, yet there is a deity above him, a deity whom he worships. …”
The LDS church forbids prayer to Jesus Christ, who is doctrinally considered an inferior deity who had to earn his godhood. Fact.
Second point: Yeah, I’ve heard of the Nicene Creed. Why do you think it was adopted across the Christian world? Because it was nothing new — it only summarized what Christians already believed.
Christians didn’t have to wait for the Council of Nicea to figure out that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were one and the same person.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:1-3
“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.'” John 14:6-7
“Jesus answered: ‘Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” John 14:9
“All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” John 14:25-26
“Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, …” Matthew 28:18-19
Etc.
Third point: There were 11 men who supposedly saw the golden plates. Three of them, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris, were shown the plates by an angel, according to the story. All three of them were excommunicated by the LDS church, though two returned later.
An associate of Cowdery later claimed that Cowdery had privately denied his testimony. Cowdery testified in court that his testimony about the plates was true.
In an interview, Harris explained: “I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. Sometimes the plates would be on a table in the room in which Smith did the translating, covered over with a cloth. I was told by Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at them, and I believed it. When the time came for the three witnesses to see the plates, Joseph Smith, myself, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, went into the woods to pray. When they had engaged in prayer, they failed at the time to see the plates or the angel who should have been on hand to exhibit them. They all believed it was because I was not good enough, or in other words, not sufficiently sanctified. I withdrew. As soon as I had gone away, the three others saw the angel and the plates. In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates. (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71.)”
The other eight witnesses — Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith — claimed to have handled the plates, which were then supposedly returned to the angel Moroni. Most of these 11 witnesses were from the Smith and Whitmer clans, families that were involved in writing the Book of Mormon. (Cowdery was a cousin of Smith’s.) All the Whitmers were later excommunicated.
Compare the golden plates with the Mosaic tablets. The golden plates were shown by an angel, and at least one witness admits he didn’t actually see the plates except in a trance-like state. Most of the witnesses are involved in writing the Book of Mormon, after which the plates once again disappear into the angelic archives, having been seen by only a select few of a very small circle. The Mosaic tablets, on the other hand, were shown to the public, smashed, duplicated, shown again, then lugged around the desert for 40 years, moved around from town to town, finally housed in their own special building where access was restricted to priests but was given over the course of generations, then finally lost in a well-documented historical thrashing of Israel. I may not have seen the Mosaic tablets, but I’ve seen the Western Wall and read Josephus and other historians’ accounts of ancient Jerusalem, all of which tend to support the history of the temple of Solomon and hence the tablets. On the other hand, the golden plates did a complete rewrite of generally known history of the Holy Land, the discovery of America, and the people known to have inhabited America before Europeans. Though it claims to be an ancient work, the Book of Mormon exhibits a number of anachronisms that mark it as a 19th century work. The Mosaic tablets are simply commandments about proper behavior, and there is a good deal of historical evidence of their influence on ancient Hebrew culture.
The 11 Mormon witnesses supposedly signed their testimony about what they had seen. Just a question: Has anyone seen these signed documents? Every copy of the Book of Mormon I’ve seen simply prints the names of these witnesses. It’s a minor detail, but if these witnesses are claimed to have signed something but there is no signed document to be found …
Fourth point, it’s interesting you assume that because I point out facts about Mormonism that I must hate Mormons. Quite the opposite, I assure you. I can’t think of a Mormon I’ve met who wasn’t likeable, I’m just clear about what their beliefs are.

mechmorph on September 2, 2006 at 5:25 am

mechmorph, just to keep the records straight it was me that addressed the stone tablets not Phoenix. Didn’t want Phoenix confused when checking in.

PsychoKat on September 2, 2006 at 5:39 am

Jon:
You are a well equiped apologist for your ‘faith’. I admire the indoctrination that has been given you.
I only offer for last, I posted the end of the prophesies as only regarded Jesus’ life, he came to fulfil the LAW/ We are now in the age of GRACE.
Teh post-Christ prophesies are Chapter 2 if you will and ALL must take place, or God IS A LIAR!
Please take a look at Mormanism. Do you see the LAWS invoked. But, we come to the Kkingdom. not by WORKS, but by FAITH.
My best to you and yours.
I offer you this from the founder of a cousin cult, Christian Scientists:
“Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion.” L. Ron Hubbard

Grateful1 on September 2, 2006 at 6:52 am

Well, there is one thing we all should be able to agree on whether you’re a Mormon, Catholic, Jew, Baptist, Methodist, et al, and that is we are all in trouble with the ONE religion that is producing the terrorists who cut people’s heads off while praising “Allah Akbar” (God is Great) at the top of their lungs! And that is the various sects of Islam.
Although I can peacefully disagree with a Mormon, I don’t have to fear having my throat slit for doing so. There are no other religions that I am aware of — Hindu, Bhudism, etc. that actually teach a ‘convert or die’ message. Any such religion and the people who practice that type of religion are a threat to all of us.
I really wish more of the people who read this site had the chance to travel outside of the U.S. and see for themselves what is actually occuring in the name of Islam. The radicalism and death it produces.
Of course, just as with Christianity, there will be the Islamists who claim Islam is a religion of peace too. But that claim can’t be made for some of the sects that Islam has produced such as Wahhabism. Wahhabism is considered, by far, the most deadly form of Islam and is the official denomination of Islam for Saudi Arabia. Most of the throat-cutters probably come from this sect of Islam.
In any event, and based on what I have seen here and abroad, I stand firmly by my assertion that Muslims are not culturally compatibile with Westerners. And that it has proved to be a mistake to allow them to immigrate into the West. That immigration should be stopped now. There will be death enough from the ones who are here already to allow even more to come in.

Phoenix on September 2, 2006 at 10:01 am

I’m actually not the one that said that Tracy and Debbie.
Also, I just wanted to say the only person making any sense in these comments is PsychoKat.
ACTUALLY, PSYCHOKAT CAME TO THIS SITE AFTER APPARENTLY BEING ONE OF THE FOOLISH WOMEN ON THE VISAJOURNEY SITE WHO SEEK TO MARRY MID-EASTERN MUSLIM MEN, WHO USE THEM TO GET HERE AND THEN DIVORCE THEM ONCE A GREEN CARD IS OBTAINED. SHE INITIALLY CAME TO THIS SITE TO ATTACK ME FOR OUTING THESE FOOLISH WOMEN AND DEFEND THEIR IDIOCY WHICH IS HELPING TO BRING DOWN THIS COUNTRY AND BRING IN MORE ISLAMOFASCISTI.
IF THAT MAKES SENSE TO YOU, MANATOCH, TELLS US ALL WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT YOU–AND CONFIRMS WHAT WE ALREADY THINK.
DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL

Manatoch on September 2, 2006 at 5:31 pm

I could care less about her personal site. If that situation is working out for her, then fine by me.
She seems to have a pretty secular mindset about her which makes a hell of a lot more sense than any religious extremism.
Here’s some info on me. I’m not middle eastern. I’m Italian on my mom’s side, Irish/German on my dad’s. Raised Catholic. I do believe in God. I’m tending a bit towards the agnostic side in terms of Catholicism.
I believe both ultra liberals and ultra conservatives are annoying and way too one sided. Everything is black and white for both of them which is why we can never get shit done in this country. I think both sides have their heads completely up their asses and are ruining this country.
Aaaaaand there’s more, but I’ve got to go right now. Maybe more later.

Manatoch on September 2, 2006 at 5:51 pm

Tracy Hall:
Well, as I said, I hate to get drawn into theological debates for various reasons but reading the comments of Tracy Hall, leaves me little choice. I also have a comment about the aid, whether cash or not, the LDS is providing to the IRW, which I’m sure she won’t like hearing too much either.
First, I am NOT going to get into a long drawn out debate here but I am going to provide some things non-Mormons should think about. And I stand by my assertion that the overwhelming majority of Christians consider the Mormon Church cultish and for good reason.
Tracy, do you understand the concept of immutability? Immutability is the doctrine of classical Christian theism that G-d cannot change; hence, since G-d cannot change, His Word cannot change either. This is also backed up by scripture and carries a serious warning for Christians: (Rev. 22:18) “Whoever adds to this book, God shall add to him the plagues described in this book. Whoever takes from this, God will take away his share in the tree of life.” And (Deuteronomy 4:2) “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commands of the LORD your God which I command you.”
Yet, in the eyes of multitudes of Christians, this is precisely what the “prophet” Joseph Smith did, the founder of the Mormon religion, in 1830. It was Joseph Smith, “chosen by God” to be a “latter-day saint” as true a prophet as any named in the Bible who said:
“God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).
Starting about 1835 (maybe as early as 1831) Joseph Smith practiced polygamy (having more than one wife, in reality polygyny) without an alleged approved revelation from God allowing it. At the same time an alleged revelation from God in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants condemned it, as does the Book of Mormon. One of many sources about Smith’s many wives is, Mormon Polygamy – A History, by Richard S. Van Wagoner; in the Mormons Scriptures see: 1835 D&C, Section CI, page 251, verses 2 and 4; Jacob 2:24, 27; 3:5; Mosiah 11:2; Ether 10:5; 1 Tim. 3:2, 12. The alleged revelation allowing the practice of polygamy (the new and everlasting covenant) is found in D&C 132 and is dated July 12, 1843, well after Smith started the practice.
*** Joseph Smith, while married to Emma, his first wife, took other men’s wives and single women as his plural wives. In doing this, while existing LDS Scriptures condemned it, he for many years committed fornication and adultery, both of which are condemned in the Bible and Book of Mormon. And at the same time it was publicly denied, thus also making him a long term liar. Mormon Apostle (soon to be president and prophet) Spencer W. Kimball said. Also,
“We can hardly be too forceful in reminding people that they cannot sin and be forgiven and then sin again and again and expect repeated forgiveness… (The Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1969, page 360)
It’s interesting to note how Mormons today distance themselves and have changed their teachings from the early teachings of Mormon founder and polygamist “prophet” Joseph Smith. Yet AGAIN causing problems with the word of G-d being immutable! Not only are G-d’s words added to in the Bible, they have added another entire book (The book of Mormon)!
… and a voice spoke from heaven saying:
“These plates have been translated by the power of God.
The translation of them which you have seen is correct, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear.”
— Joseph Smith in “History of the Church” vol. 1, p. 55
“And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true”
— “Testimony of The Testimony of Three Witnesses”
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth…
— Joseph Smith “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” p. 194
I could go on along these lines ad infinitum but I will end with one that as a Jewish person raises particular questions and addresses Tracy’s odd statement that to “Scratch an anti-Mormon, and you will find an anti-Semite!”
Doesn’t that seem a rather strange thing to say? And why should a Jewish person wonder about a statement like that?
IT’S BECAUSE MORMONS EITHER DID OR STILL DO BELIEVE THAT THEY AND/OR NATIVE ANERICANS ARE ONE OF THE LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL! Talk about dumping some garbage on this site. Did it occur to Tracy that that may offend plenty of Jews?
Now, to the question of relief to the IRW:
Tracy Hall said:
“President Gordon B. Hinckley, leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has emphasized that the Church’s humanitarian assistance is provided to those in need wherever they may be without regard to religious affiliation, race, ethnicity or political persuasion.”
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? IF THAT STATEMENT IS TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY, THEN I WOULD CONSIDER THE LDS AN ENEMY OF THE U.S., ISRAEL, AND THE ENTIRE WEST! ISLAM IS A RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION THAT WANTS TO SLICE YOUR HEAD OFF AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE GLOBE! AND YET THEY SHOULD STILL BE PROVIDED HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IF THEY NEED IT??
I stand by my statement. In my opinion, Mormonism is a cult.

Phoenix on September 3, 2006 at 6:53 am

Wow Debbie!
I agree that I found your site due to the visajourney article, and joined to address that, but apparently you didn’t seem to understand why I had a problem with it. I understand and respect your opinions regarding islamics. If you had posted the same article, instead using factual information, I’d have been just as disturbed by it as you and had no problem with what you had to say at all. To be realistic, it’s not unlikely that this type of thing is happening, and with a little research one could find factual information regarding it. The problem I had with your article is you didn’t research your information, and as result posted false information, which not only is misleading your readers, but would be so obviously false to anyone taking the time to look things over that you risk damaging your own crediblity. And of course the harm to those caught in the crossfire. I have no problem with the issue if the information is factual…only when it’s not.
Now for your comments regarding me personally.
You stated “ACTUALLY, PSYCHOKAT CAME TO THIS SITE AFTER APPARENTLY BEING ONE OF THE FOOLISH WOMEN ON THE VISAJOURNEY SITE WHO SEEK TO MARRY MID-EASTERN MUSLIM MEN, WHO USE THEM TO GET HERE AND THEN DIVORCE THEM ONCE A GREEN CARD IS OBTAINED”
In the article in question had you read through my posts you would know that you are dead wrong in your description of me. I am not seeking to marry anyone, I’ve been happily married since July 2002 and don’t believe in polygamy…so nope…not looking for anyone to marry. And no he is not mid-eastern and couldn’t even do a good impersonation of one, or muslim, but he can do an awesome scottish impression accent wise. Ok I admit yes…yes…he is from another country and we did have go through the immigration process. And *drumroll please* what foreign country is he from…Canada!, although holds British citizenship. Shall I go on? We were involved for 2 years prior getting married..all total that makes it 6 years we’ve been together..kinda blows that whole green card then divorce thing. Hmm what else…. His parents were protestants (sp) and members of the Church of England, I don’t really know if they are practicing now but I can ask if you like, just ask if you’d like to know anything else….I can send you pictures if you ask nicely 🙂 Although I am a member of visajourney, I was already married before I joined it..Married 2002, joined the site in 2005..so nope was’t looking for a mid-easterner to marry then either…but that’s not what the site is for….else I wouldn’t be there, that would just be tooo wierd. So you ask..why am I a member?…go ahead..ask me! For peace of mind..let me tell you, the legal immigration process is not something for the faint hearted…the forms and fee’s are pretty straight forward, but jeeze the waiting…..and how visajourney came into the picture, it’s a site for people going through the process to share their experiences…and instead of just hanging in limbo with no real concept of how long things will take, you can at least see how long others are waiting through different stages of the process, and although you can’t set your watch or make any other serious plans based on that information….it’s better than having absolutely no concept at all of how long things will take.
And…I think thats enough for now

PsychoKat on September 3, 2006 at 7:11 am

As an afterthought I realized I did not mention what religious beliefs by husband adheres to and I JUST KNOW if that’s not idicated you’re going to think I left that out on purpose and go “AH HA SEE IT’S THE ISLAM THING”
Nope..sorry if it bursts your bubble but much like me he doesn’t really adhere to any specific religious belief system.

PsychoKat on September 3, 2006 at 7:52 am

Debbie, you are rapidly losing credibility on this issue with your unwillingness to admit your error.
You keep yelling out that the church gave $1.6 million to a terrorist organization, despite twice, now, being shown direct evidence that NOTHING was given to IRW. IRW provided the airplane to transport goods given to Indonesians. You keep claiming you presented evidence that the church gave $1.6 million directly to IRW. Actually, you did no such thing. There is no link to your source, there is nothing in your blog entry that remotely even resembles evidence, unless you count the statement by IRW that they partner with the LDS church periodically. All you did was make a declarative statement, followed by a long list of disgusting things the IRW has done.
You continue to dodge the facts presented you that show the LDS church has not done what you accuse it of, and your response is simply more invective and rhetoric.
I smell an agenda.

frgough on September 5, 2006 at 5:12 pm

Debbie,
You are pretty good at ignoring reason and logic, apparently. You just completely dismissed everything Tracy Hall said by giving him an “I know you are, but what am I?” type of response. Well done.
WRONG. LEARN TO READ. THE CHURCH GAVE $1.6 MILLION TO A CHARITY FRONT FOR ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, AND LEGITIMIZED THAT GROUP. ALL THE “DISTINCTIONS” TRACY MADE ARE WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE. I CAN ONLY REPEAT FACTS SO MANY TIMES. IF THEY DON’T SINK INTO YOUR HEAD THROUGH INTELLIGENT READING COMPREHENSION, OSMOSIS WON’T WORK.
DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL

benny1982 on September 13, 2006 at 4:45 pm

You learn to read. You’re so full of yourself that you can’t admit it when you may have gone just a little overboard. Those distinctions are NOT without a difference. The church did NOT give the money to the terrorists, but to people in need (ie, women, children, homeless, starving, etc). You attack others for their supposed “fallacies,” while you spew forth lies and propaganda without thought for the glaring fallacies in your own arguments. Your method of argument is to attack the people that present logical, well thought-out evidence that refutes your base claim, without actually presenting counter-arguments that even remotely refute their claims.
If you still think that what the church did was give money that in any remote way could possibly fund terrorists, you are mistaken. Maybe you mean that by helping out the starving, afflicted people of the war-torn area in the Middle East, they have somehow “funded terrorism” by allowing the children to grow up. Maybe the possibility exists that they might eventually become terrorists one day. However, who are you or I to judge what child does and doesn’t need food, shelter, and clothing? If everyone only helped out based on “potential” alone, this world would indeed be a sad place. I’m sorry that you fail to acknowledge that you are mistaken on this point.
Good luck with your agenda, and goodbye.

benny1982 on September 13, 2006 at 5:37 pm

The Church posted the following clarification:
“Church Clarifies Aid Through Islamic Relief Worldwide”
Various News Outlets, 13 September 2006
One newspaper in the United States and two in Britain have recently published stories that report on aid being channeled to Islamic Relief Worldwide and that raise questions as to whether some of that aid could reach terrorist organizations.
The following information should clarify the procedures followed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ó often referred to as “Mormons” ó when working with various relief agencies around the world:
1. The Church has partnered with some 1,500 officially registered NGOs (nongovernmental organizations) and charitable agencies across the world. The Church works diligently to identify respected organizations with excellent track records.
2. The Church also uses the services of Charity Navigator, a highly respected, independent monitoring organization to help in its assessment of organizations that will receive aid.
3. The Church does not embroil itself in politics. It is interested only in delivering aid to the needy. In the Middle East, it has worked both with Islamic Relief Worldwide and with the Israeli equivalent of the Red Cross.
4. Regarding Islamic Relief Worldwide, contacts made by the Church at various levels of the U.S. government have confirmed that the organization is not listed as a suspected terrorist organization and that there are no restrictions in dealing with it. Charity Navigator has awarded Islamic Relief Worldwide a four-star rating. The British government likewise continues to work officially with this organization.
5. All donations from the Church to Islamic Relief Worldwide have been in the form of relief items such as clothing, quilts, disposable diapers, infant formula, wheelchairs, washcloths, soap and first aid supplies. In each case, representatives of the Church accompanied the shipments and oversaw distribution. In Lebanon, the United Nations Relief and Work Agency is distributing the goods.
6. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Latter-day Saint Charities have a reputation for integrity and efficiency in their humanitarian efforts, and work only with those agencies that have earned a similar reputation over the years. Any organization that falls short is eliminated from its list of partner agencies.

AlexisSpencer on September 20, 2006 at 11:01 pm

Kasbek Soobsookov went to the university of bridgeport, where most of the students were Jewish. A Jewish friend of his was even invited to his wedding. Kazbek loved soccer. No one knew he was the son of Tscherim. Nazis living in America, the book shocked me, as I saw his name. Though some facts are wrong, Kazbek had nothing to do with the motorcycle gang that the book mentions.

jay dee on August 31, 2009 at 12:55 am

Here, it is now 2000 and 10 (2010). i don’t know about all that donation stuff, but i do know that alot of people in the Morman comunity are of a mix decent, meaning that alot of them are in fact terrorist symathizors. some are not. but i know first hand of this and how and why. i also know, or should go on to say that these people had been integrated into their society and now many places in society. i can tell who they are ususally by a face or by their character. Terrorists may not look like terrrorists, & they may not carry bombs. They use other tacktics as well. i was married to one & they have alo-o-o-o-o-o-t of cousins/clones. it’s no joke, & what’s interesting is how defensive they will become too when confrounted.

renee elizabeth on March 4, 2010 at 5:01 pm

there main bases were out of southern nevada & est texas, & of course spred out from there.

renee elizabeth on March 4, 2010 at 5:04 pm

“Given all this, why are Mormons pouring millions into Islamic Relief?”

The short answer? We aren’t. This accusation is one in a multitude of lies anti-Mormon kooks spout. LDS church funds are stretched to the limit with building temples, supporting unemployed and poor Mormons, etc. There is no money left over for Islamic relief, much less millions.

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